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General Committee Meeting - 12 August 2019 Transcript

Monday 12 August 2019 · 2 hours 45 minutes of recording · 2,264 lines · 14 voices, 6 named

This is a machine transcript of council's recording, produced by automatic speech recognition and not checked line by line against the video. Councillor and place names are corrected where a human has approved the correction; everything else is what the model heard. Quote the recording, not this page — every timestamp below opens council's own video at that second. Recording © Noosa Shire Council; the transcript is ours, made from it so the meeting can be searched and read.

Speakers: the machine separated 14 voices and names 6 of them — only where the recording itself establishes who it is (they introduced themselves, were called on by name, or their voice matches meetings where they were). The others stay “Speaker N”. Hover a name to see why it is there.

Start of recording

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00:00:00 Deputy Mayor Stockwell: The easiest way to get paid is to do it on the move exercise. Councillor Wilkie: And we're councillors, the meeting's live. Alright, welcome everybody. I declare the General Committee meeting open. I begin by acknowledging the traditional owners on the land on which we meet today, that's the Kabi Kabi or Gabi Gabi people. Pay respects to their elders past, present and emerging. We have an apology from Councillor Ingrid Jackson. We have no presentations? No. No, thank you. And the items referred here today begin with the Noosa Council's submission to Queensland Government's Queensland Eco-Tourism Trails Programme, Cooloola Great Great Walk. That was referred for further information. And councillors, we received a proposed motion. Mayor Wellington: Yes, I'd like to move the motion on the screen. Councillor Wilkie: Move the council motion. Mayor Wellington: I'd like to read that out. Yep, yep. So the motion is the same as the staff recommendation at the beginning, which is that we note the report by the Economic Development Manager of the Planning and Environment Committee meeting dated 6th of August,

00:01:00 an approved council submission to the Queensland Government's Queensland Eco-Tourism Trails Programme, Cooloola Great Great Walk as provided in attachment under the report. And this is where it's different, with the inclusion of the following additional items. A, item 4, new dot point to read, helicopters should not be used to service the Cooloola Great Great Walk as this would result in significant impacts on the amenity of the national park. B, new item to read, the campsite should be used for hikers experiencing the Cooloola Great Great Walk and not be used as accommodation for non-hikers. And C, new item to read, the national park walking trails should remain non-exclusive and therefore available to those customers, the commercial operator, as well as independent hikers not utilising the services of the commercial operator. Councillor Jurisevic: Excuse me, Mr Chair, I asked a question of the, yes, of the mover. Yep. With regard to the, probably your item's two ends, right? Are you suggesting there's a differentiation between the Cooloola Great Great Walk track and any other tracks in the national park by, by, by, by making this, this recommendation?

00:02:00 Mayor Wellington: You, well, what we are not aware of is whether or not the state intends to make what is currently a walk available to anyone exclusive to a commercial operator. And the intention is that it should not be exclusive. That a national park should be available to everyone. Additional facilities and guides, et cetera, may be provided to the commercial operator, but that shouldn't mean that the commercial operator is the only one to exploit the, uh, Cooloola Great Great Walk. Councillor Jurisevic: I'm not sure what you mean by B, then. The campsite should be used for hikers experiencing the Cooloola Great Great Walk and not be used for accommodation of non-hikers. I mean, non-hikers, the only way to get there is, the only way to get there is by hiking. Mayor Wellington: I'll talk to the motion, um, rather than do this. I need a seconder. Oh, a seconder. Councillor Wilkie: Seconder? Mayor Wellington: Yeah. Councillor Wilkie: Okay. Councillor Iton, you have a floor. Mayor Wellington: Yeah, okay. Um, it goes to the question that, uh, Councillor, uh, Jurisevic was asking, uh, with regard to item B, uh, there is a concern that a, uh, business may, who receives the, uh, opportunity to be able to operate the Great Cooloola Great Walk, uh, certainly, I, I understand that the three businesses all intend to put in some sort of permanent structures or semi-permanent structures, glamping facilities or accommodation facilities along the walk.

00:03:00 Uh, there is a concern that these might then be used to operate the Great Cooloola Great Walk. People in and have a camping experience in the middle of a national park that has nothing to do with the walk, in which case they end up being kind of virtual resort accommodation in the middle of the national park, which is not the intention of the EOI process, as I understand it.

00:04:00 So this is just making sure that whatever accommodation is provided is for walkers. It's not being used as erstwhile resorts in the middle of the national park. And beyond that, the helicopters are self-evident. We've had a lot of complaints when helicopters were utilising the North Shore Landing Strip for training and the impact that had on the amenity of the area. Helicopters and national parks don't go well together. And the final item is ensuring that it isn't an exclusive use of the trail, but rather anyone can still continue to walk in the park. What would be provided? The accommodation facilities and some sort of guidance in terms of the trekkers. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Councillor Stewart.

00:05:00 Yeah, I think those three points are all very important. I think when we reflect back on the history of this trail, it was actually blazed by two local Noosa volunteers. And I can't remember one of the old fella's names. I think one was Vic, Vic Collins. They also helped me start the Noosa Trail. After they finished that one, they did the trail that went from Pointon through to Pomona. So there's this long association of the local community with using that trail. And it is a trail that all people should have access to. And, you know, the Council, we've received written concerns about commercialisation, if it's to the exclusion of normal people who do bushwalking and camping for their low-cost entertainment and recreation. And we've also received a number of verbal people with the same concerns, that they don't want to see the national park turned into an activity or an experience that only those

00:06:00 who can afford the guided tour can enjoy. So I fully support it. Joe. Councillor Jurisevic: I'd like to move an amendment to item B to clarify that point far greatly, and that the campsites should be used exclusively for hikers experiencing Cooloola Great Great Walk and not be used for the accommodation of non-hikers. I think that sends a, potentially a stronger message. Mayor Wellington: Exclusively after use. Councillor Jurisevic: Could only be used. Only be used. I'm open to the wording, but I'm trying to make the message stronger. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: No, no, I didn't say it exclusively. Exclusively might send the wrong message. So it should only be used. I'm happy either way.

00:07:00 Speaker 7: Only would be better. Councillor Jurisevic: Okay. Thank you. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I'll second that. Councillor Jurisevic: And the reason, Dan, the reason for adding that word, whilst it's, you know, a bit tautology, is that I think it clarifies the point being raised here, that the intent of creating a Cooloola Great Great Walk is for access for hikers. And the track's not to be exclusively for any Cooloola Great or the walkers of the Great Walk, but that other means of access, i.e. tracking people in, helicoptering people in, or other options, should not permit people to gain access to the campsites. It should be for the use of the hikers that, for which the experience is intended to be

00:08:00 created. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I'd like to move a further amendment, which is that we add an additional item D, that some camping should remain available to independent hikers, not utilising the services of the commercial operator. I'll second that. Councillor Wilkie: Seconded by Jarrah to listen. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I do so because, as I said, I think the concept of having high value experiences through the Kuala National Park is a good one. I don't not support it. I think that is good. Myself, I've only ever been on a couple of guided bushwalks, but the additional knowledge and experience I got as a result of having very knowledgeable guides was immense.

00:09:00 And so getting people to not only just enjoy the relaxation of walking, but also understanding the ecology and the history of the site's food. But what I don't want to see is that normal everyday bushwalkers like my scapegoat, or people in it, find it impossible to do the Great Walk because the campsites are always booked out to commercial operators. This is not a new thing. We have seen a great rise in the use of, say, campsite 3 on the Noosa River for commercial operations, so that it's difficult to book another large group in there at any time. So I think it's just a message to the government that, yes, we can have value-add experiences, we can build niche tourism products, which will bring high-value users, but the locals still need to be able to use their national parks. Councillor Wilkie: I'd like to ask a question. Anthony, from what you understand about this whole program, there's no plans to remove independent campsites from the Kalua Great Walk, is there?

00:10:00 My understanding is there are places, camping spots, where people carry their own tents in, set up tents. There's no intention to change that facility, is there? Speaker 1: Through you, Chair. To date, the actual detail around what's going to change or what they're proposing, I haven't seen any detail, but what we have just over the weekend, last week we engaged a bit further with state government. We've now got a response and trying to get a coordinated response. We've now got that, so I think an answer to that is that it's going to be really key to have a really close, detailed relationship. It's a procurement process at the moment, and that's where we've gone back to state and said we've been approached to engage, and we've now agreed that the three applicants will be certainly working through the procurement process as you would expect through state. We're working with Gympie now, so Gympie and ourselves will work closely with state

00:11:00 to engage with the proponents and ensure that everything in here, once we submit this, is an ongoing dialogue around those, I guess, questions, what's being taken away, what's being added, and how is that actually managed. Okay. Councillor Jurisevic: Yeah, I'll support the amendment. I think that that does seem to be a clean message. Whilst the operators of these additional facilities, like glamping facilities and the like, certainly should have solicited rights to the use of the ownership of these facilities. They should not have exclusive use of campsites, because what that will only do is encourage people to camp potentially elsewhere, not in designated campsites, and have the potential to try and drive people away from the designated campsites that already exist, and restrict the activity to the areas designated for people within those sites, and not plant them.

00:12:00 Not trample over the National Park, as they shouldn't do. It also means that, yes, as Councillor Stockwell pointed out, that these don't become exclusive rights of the operators, as has been seen in other localities. Yeah. Councillor Wilkie: The amendment seems to be a useful clarification. I'll certainly support it. Any other councillors wish to speak to the amendment? Brian, do you wish to comment? No. I put the amendment over in favour. If against, amendment's carried. Go back to the original motion, which Mayor and Councillor Stockwell have been the other two speakers. Anyone else wish to speak to the motion? Yeah. Councillor Clark. Councillor Pardon: Yeah, Mr Chairman. Yeah, as a councillor who probably lives within a few hundred metres of this walk, up at Teewah, it's kind of interesting. I can see what councillors are trying to do here.

00:13:00 This will be interesting, just to see what the State's position is here. I can see what the State's position is here. You know, you talk about exclusivity and non-exclusivity, et cetera. I don't know what the State's thinking. I don't know what the three applicants are putting forward. But I think I can see, going forward, some conflict here that looks a bit obvious in the big picture, how this is regulated. If there's ... I haven't walked the Great Walk. I've been up to a couple of stages of it, just as a councillor. But I think it's pretty interesting to have people that have a casual look around and seen their little tables and their little campsites, et cetera. And I'm not sure if I'm an independent walker from Europe or wherever I'm from, in amongst this, my campsite, how close am I to the regulated government one, et cetera, et cetera. So I can see what councillors have tried to do and that's a good thing.

00:14:00 I support that. To shut people out, whether they're backpacking around the world or whatever, or having a look at various trails across the world, as they do, it would be silly to block them out of this. It's a brilliant walk, it would be silly to block them out. But I'll just be watching going forward. We get them now walking through Teewah. I'd suggest in amongst some of this, they want to look at signage again. You know, I just advised a couple last week, put them back on the trail up there, because it isn't that clear, they're very small signs, and I can understand that for aesthetics, but they need to be clearer. And I'd suggest also if they're going up there in summer, I've had to put them in my car, take them back to the camp, because the March flies have nearly devoured some of these Europeans in the summer time.

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00:15:00 That is not a good place. That is not a good place to be, behind them sand hills. The Mozzie's are the biggest camera bombers, and the, yeah, all the other nasties are out. But look, it's a fantastic tourism experience, and it's a showcase for Noosa, and Kalidola as well. So, totally support it, but I'll just be interested to see how this ends up in the wash. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: Now, councillors, would you speak for the motion? Councillor Jurisevic: Joe? Yeah, again, as I said, I'll reiterate some of the points raised by Councillor Pardon there, and the points raised earlier. National parks are for the use of all Australians, not for anyone's exclusive use, and that's how it should be made available, ensuring that the rights of those that do get to walk in these beautiful areas of their own.

00:16:00 It's a great way to call them, even though the opportunity for great guide walks, and that is admirable, still should be open to all that want to access the parks. I mean, the walk from Noosadu, Cooloola Great, or Noosadu to Rainbow is quite a lengthy one, and you will need to camp out for more often than not, so you're never going to do it in one day. It's one that I'm looking forward to taking the challenge off one day as well. Councillor Glasgow: I would just like to thank the man for seeing this, and adding these points, as someone who actually has done the walk and did the camp many years ago when I was a whippersnapper when I was 21, walked with a bunch of friends, and we camped out and had a great time, and it's great to sort of foresee this and to chuck this in and to reiterate the fact that this is such an integral part of Noosadu, Cooloola Great, and I hope everyone now in the future, including us around the world, will be able to do it.

00:17:00 This time next year let's say let's have walk this walk this trail. Oh good. Team building. Team Councillor Jurisevic: building. The man loves it. Like sleeping out. He's into sleeping. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Councillor Wynter. I mean I mean do it by motion you can't get out of it. Councillor Wilkie: Those in favour? Against? Motions carried. Thank you. Next item is uh thank you Anthony. Thank you. Review of council meeting live streaming and video operations from the Services and Organisations Committee agenda. Page 45. Referred for significance of the issue. Page 45. Any questions of the CEO? Uh I've got a few if that's all right. Yes Councillor Drissety.

00:18:00 Councillor Jurisevic: Uh this is this is only the live stream. I've got a series of questions that I asked the CEO but they only do with live streaming. You suggested in your report that staff time and hours to set up live stream is considerable but there's no costs associated with costing. You've been any indication of how much time is devoted to the setups and ongoing operation of live streaming and viewing Speaker 7: recorded meetings please? Thanks Joe. We um we don't keep individual or time sheets for one of us saying that you know the staff member spent 30 minutes here or an hour there or whatever so I'd not be able to tell you exactly how much time there was but certainly um the two staff in my office, um there were two staff in IT so the research in terms of what uh what systems were going to be useful, how do we procure those, how do we set them up, how do we test them, um there was a lot of staff time involved but I can't give you an exact amount or time of that. Uh so more than 10 hours, Councillor Jurisevic: more than 20 hours? I mean you know it'd be more than 50 hours. Okay more than 50 hours so just an indication and so that's that's a considerable amount of amount of hours to devote to uh the

00:19:00 setting up of it. Uh second question that arises from that, why was the format of YouTube chosen and were there any other options available? Um I can't answer that um the technical staff could probably answer that better than I could. Can I get you to take that motion on your notice for uh Thursday night's meeting? Yeah mainly I guess because YouTube is a pretty well-known Speaker 7: video sharing service. Councillor Jurisevic: Yeah but it it as a result it um uh it potentially prefers uh um offers some challenges to what can and can't be done on that platform and one of the questions I have uh the second question I that arises from um that is uh may uh well like the reason I've asked that question may come from the the next question I've got to raise which is what would it take to determine where viewers were watching from? I mean we've got talking about staff at their desks we've got examples of that versus people that are locally or people elsewhere. I mean uh one of the points of providing this is

00:20:00 uh is for the benefit of um those in our local area realistically although we don't mind uh anybody else uh viewing but if we've got no statistics on where people are viewing from one of the limitations of YouTube therefore is is that um that opportunity and what other platforms may or may not uh afford that um that statistical analysis of uh of where people are viewing from. The other question is how many are live streaming versus watching watching recordings afterwards so how benefit beneficial is it for people that just can't come in on the at the time and are watching live streaming that may be a difference between staff or or may not um versus uh you know how many are actually taking the time to say well I couldn't get to the meeting and seeing afterwards I think they're interesting statistics. Okay so to answer your first question first about Speaker 7: um what other platform or why we couldn't look at another platform but I think the choice of platform is very much around ease of use for the user not whether or not

00:21:00 we could track who was or wasn't watching so um we don't or aren't able to have statistics about um where people are watching from whether it's in Brisbane or Noosa or in this building um I'd be very curious to to uh it is it is more a few of you need to see that it's not something that affects the usability of the system. My gut feeling is that we do have a lot of staff watch um council meeting or particularly today's general committee meeting the staff might have an item on the agenda later on I want to know when to come up or just to see how the debate went but I have no way of telling you how many staff watched Councillor Jurisevic: or how many other people watched or whatever only the total number of viewers. Well I guess the question for staff then is are there other platforms that we could utilize that would enable Speaker 7: that information to be obtained. I guess the point I'm making is that primary test for me is not whether we could get that information the primary test would be how easy is the system to use for the

00:22:00 Councillor Jurisevic: viewer. Get that and it seems and I understand YouTube is an easy platform but again there's limitations to what we can and can't do with YouTube as a result of having chosen that platform. Speaker 3: That's it Joe. That's it. That's question one. I'll move it if you like Mr Chair if there's no more questions. Councillor Wilkie: One second. Second is Councillor Wellington. Sure. Speak to it. Yeah yeah yeah I will uh Mr Chair um Councillor Pardon: basically uh we understand about transparency and this is another I suppose um way of being more transparent if you like. Um I'd have to say in the past uh the old council that I was a part of sorry to keep referring to the old days but um I'd have to say in history uh we'd be as um as uh the most uh I wouldn't say the most transparent council because that's a bit uh facetious but uh certainly over the years that I've been associated associated with Noosa

00:23:00 Council 1997 um when I came in uh it's the meetings have always been open to the public uh of course uh in the report where it says we've been closed a few times when you you get into commercial ality etc and purchases etc naturally you close the meetings but apart from those type of reasons we've always been open and transparent and I guess this is another step and I don't have a problem with it at all uh if there's any other way we can be more open I don't really know what it is uh maybe you know we start meeting on the street corners and just inviting everyone in general across the Shire but uh certainly um this is not a problem at all. Look I understand uh staff concerns um and uh as it says in the report about the way we've configured

00:24:00 cameras etc uh to try and uh protect if you like the identity of staff etc and they're not public figures and we must always remember that uh so that that was my major concern I suppose when we started out on this journey to get more transparent um how do we protect our staff and and the other thing is um I guess uh I thought that maybe staff um might be more reluctant um in that in that arena uh being on film etc with regards to answering questions etc but you know they can take those questions on notice if they're not 100 sure etc I think it's I think it's been um successful uh the process and um I don't know how many thousands of people

00:25:00 watch us and our brilliant performance in here or tens yeah uh but I think um it's just another step in our in transparent process and don't have a problem with it at all thank you council Deputy Mayor Stockwell: council stockwell I'll speak to as well um so the yeah the the additional um service we're providing and the item v of the of the recommendations about bookmarking I think that's a good one um I quite often go back and see whether my jokes are actually funny no um terrible but I think why the answer is always the same if anyone's sort of using ko sports they know that they they actually go to the line down the bottom and says try and that could be the motion and we have you know penalty goals uh you know they also

00:26:00 have missed goals so I probably feature on the missed goals quite a lot in the joke state but I think what are you talking about oh they have sports they're bookmarking you can look at the whole game you say I just want to watch the tries and that's what people have an allegory oh thank you anyway so yes and my my jokes would be akin to the missed goals yeah um I do think it's important then there's a serious issue of the whether to do the earlier committee meetings and I totally agree with the CEO's analysis on that um they were introduced in the 88 to 91 council as portfolios and they were behind the closed doors meetings um we could recommend to then two separate committees which is akin to what we do here um they are open to the public if there's anything that's mildly controversial they tend to come here which is uh is video stream and I think that's the right way to go I don't I think uh run-of-the-mill business um I think that's the right way to go I

00:27:00 think the sort of informality of those meetings is important uh for them to serve their purpose so I totally agree with not going down the track as recommended uh or as was proposed in the notice of motion which this report uh refers to it's not a matter of lack of transparency it's about good governance and the process we have in place is exemplary governance and Councillor Stockwell Mayor Wellington: Councillor Wellington um yeah the report notes um the difference between the number of open and closed meetings on the Noosa Council as compared to the Sunshine Coast Council and having been a councillor on the Sunshine Coast Council I can certainly attest to Noosa Council's level of transparency when it comes to meetings on the Sunshine Coast Council of course um there are agenda reviews which go through the entire agenda of the upcoming meeting and they are closed to the public uh so I think it's important that we

00:28:00 so that significant they're supposed to be just for questioning but a significant amount of information uh that leads towards the decision making is is hidden from view uh it certainly speeds up the process when they get to the ordinary meeting because of part of what we include in our open meetings they put regardless of the topic at hand in their agenda review process so um if comparisons were to be made and they seem to be made made regularly between this council and the former amalgamated council this council has made enormous strides towards greater transparency compared to the situation that our residents experienced under the amalgamated council Councillor Jurisevic: thank you council chair it should be remembered that you know we've had a a plan and a process in place at some time to review standing orders and transparency and openness of council meetings and I've always been happy to consider all matters regarding improvements in council operations but fully supportive of all matters going through due process

00:29:00 council have had a review as I've said on a review of standing orders uh on the agenda for some time it should be noted that uh you know a lot of the um the the call for further transference and that with regard to the site type of things in the Belcarra uh review are far removed from the top things that we're talking about here they're more about uh you know due process and uh and and interference in the in in the process by uh by councillors or uh or mayors uh with regard to uh uh council operations so this is going down to more more of a nuts and bolts element and I said I think I think they're all worthy of uh of review the the process here with regard to live streaming does open up a a newer level of um clearer and more concise uh understanding of council uh operations councillors uh activities and operations and it also means that just in the minutes one of the things that's not captured in minutes which uh is probably captured in uh a higher level of government state and federal

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00:30:00 parliament is um what is said at what is said and spoken at the meetings through our uh our meeting uh agendas and our our meeting minutes a lot of that isn't captured and live streaming does allow um elements of that to be captured the essence of what is what is spoken about the uh the rhyme and reason for arguments which are often not captured in uh in minutes and so I fully welcome and uh and uh applaud uh council on uh on taking on live streaming look I fully support the decision Councillor Wilkie: to continue the live streaming obviously it's been a very healthy and welcome addition to council's operations uh it allows um residents who are unable to attend all these public meetings to see the meetings at their leisure it's a very healthy addition and I think it's working very very well I also welcome the introduction of bookmarking which will save our residents and

00:31:00 ratepayers a lot of time and locating items of interest to them without having to trawl through often hours of footage before they find what they're after of course we can always communicate better and more extensively so I also support part c of this which is um to publicize the availability of live streaming council's general committee ordinary and special council meetings and also the meeting schedule generally which are all all these meetings again are available open to the public I also support the decision to continue to live stream the general committee ordinary and special council meetings because they are full council meetings where with the exception of the general committee which is still in essence only an advisory committee but they are where all the debate takes place and where decisions final decisions are made the portfolio committees really only have an advisory role and their sole purpose is to

00:32:00 forward recommendations to these other forums where the debate and decisions can take place I fully support the um emotion um Joe sorry may I just offer a an answer to question council Councillor Jurisevic: pardon's question earlier with regard to the number of people that have that have viewed overall certainly being 4213 38 according to the statistics for us from February till Mayor Wellington: July at an average of 235 firm meetings 4 000 people could be uh 500 people watching over and over Councillor Jurisevic: that's it well that's that's how the statistics come up you've got no indication as to whether they've been watching more than once I'm not entirely sure why you'd watch it over and over that's probably why there's only two on the fridge Councillor Pardon: Councillor Park, do you wish to close? Oh, just a couple of things there, Mr Chairman. I guess the key in amongst this, or some of the keys, for me, in informal meetings, I

00:33:00 mean, we have parliamentarians in informal meetings, kicking the stones around, ideas, staff ideas, et cetera. Some of the people, a lot of the people, I'll say, that work for us are a lot smarter than this councillor, and are we the fond of all knowledge? Well, absolutely not. And so that informality, where people feel free and open to bring forward ideas, and as I said, it could be anything from the upwards to the Premier of Queensland that's been in this building. So if you take away that, you lose so much, because, you know, once again, staff, you know, staff are put in a position, and I think you lose that openness, you know, some of the ideas, might be some I bring in, are pretty off the wall, you know, might be seen

00:34:00 as whatever. So you lose that informality, and that's just not good government to lose that, in my opinion. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: I think I'll put the motion those in favour. Against? The motion is carried. Next item is item three, which is review of standing. Standing orders for council meetings, page 52 of the services and organisation committee agenda, referred for significance of the issue. Again, councillor's questions. CEO, Joe. Councillor Jurisevic: With regard to the introduction of public question time, I know we haven't actually gone any further than this, other than to introduce the concept into our standing orders, but what if any considerations may be? We looked at, with regard to staff and councillor safety of meetings in light of security upgrades currently underway in the building, would allowing a, do you believe allowing a public platform at meeting could raise any additional personal or safety issues?

00:35:00 Speaker 7: No, I don't think so. Basically, you know, what we have now is meetings that are open to the public, public comes. Sometimes people who come to meetings are perhaps a little worked up about an issue, or whatever it might be. We've never had any issues in the past, and I couldn't see that that would change in the future. In fact, it'd probably help, to be honest, people who can have a say. Councillor Jurisevic: Very good. Thank you. Can I stop? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Just further on the public question time. The item of the time, the public question time guidelines, could the CEO outline what he thinks might be some of the things that would be included in such a guideline? Speaker 7: Yeah. Look, I've had a look at what other guidelines are out there. Particularly, I got in touch with some of my colleagues in Victoria and Western Australia, because they have that as part of their system, and I've got probably 15 or 20 examples from across the country, what they use.

00:36:00 The sorts of things that are pretty typical is about the requirement to put your question up front, so that staff or councillors can prepare and say, well, I've got your answer on the spot. Most times, that would be the better way of doing it, so that the response is immediate. If the response sometimes is more technical, requires more research, sometimes it is take my notice and get back, and normally some of those guideline requirements are that's provided in writing to the person who would request them. Some of the other things is limiting the number of questions, so that one person doesn't take all the time up. It might be limited to two. That's a fairly common provision as well. Some of the ones, there was a good one out of Victoria that I saw that had a very defined list about what public question time is for and what it's not for. For example, in one case, it was, it's not for lodging a customer request. I've got a pothole in my road, what are you going to do about it, type of thing, but it can be where there's been a request previously and there's been no action from council.

00:37:00 Can you please provide an update of what's the council doing about X, Y, or Z? And I think that's where it can be very effective. The advice I've given from some of the other CEOs who've been dealing in this space for a while is that where it gets a little tricky is where people want to use it to grandstand or to promote a particular cause, and that's okay, because that's what happens now. People do that with petitions or whatever it might be, so just having a good set of guidelines makes it very practical for people about when it can be used well and what purpose it will perform, and then how, from a council's perspective, how we respond to that either on the night or follow up or what process that would take. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: So, that's the question. What about development applications coming in to try and lobby councils just before their applications being added? Is that something that would be generally considered acceptable in these formats or something that you've perhaps not been through? Speaker 7: I haven't got down to that level of detail yet, Brian. Certainly, that's always one of the risks in other elements in the standing orders with

00:38:00 deputations or presentations or whatever, because a lot of decision making that council makes, whether it's permits or development applications, whatever it might be, is where you're making a choice between different competing interests, and if you're only hearing from one side of that term, then obviously that can be problematical sometimes. So, I haven't got down to that level of detail in terms of how those guidelines would work. I'll have to see how that interplays with the guidelines we already have in relation to development applications and people trying to lobby councils. This would be after that period. At the moment, that lobbying doesn't allow until the report gets onto the agenda. So, yeah, I haven't given that enough thought yet. Councillor Wilkie: Joe? Councillor Jurisevic: Yeah. Further to that, my understanding is that in councils that do allow this type of public forum is that that's what it becomes, a platform for objectors to voice their opinion on development applications in particular. In Victoria, I'm quite aware of that.

00:39:00 I'm quite aware of that occurring. Is there, in any further report of consideration that you bring to council in this regard, ways and means of obtaining information on what councils do and don't permit at the forums where this type of public forum is available? Yeah. Speaker 7: As I mentioned just briefly when I was responding to Brian's question, I've been given a whole lot of examples from other states and councils. I think I've talked about 15, maybe 20 examples. So, I'll try and pick through the best of those and say, well, this would work well or hasn't worked well. And it's really about making it practical. There's no point coming up with a great theoretical thing. It's about what's going to work in practice. And I'll come back to a future meeting with that. That needs to be adopted by council. And at that stage, you can decide if that meets your expectation. Councillor Wilkie: Okay. We'll move to Councillor Stockwell.

00:40:00 Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Thank you. With the additional wording, which I shall add in. I'm glad you got that before you started debating it. I thought he was moving the staff recommendation. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no. I can't move it because I forgot an amendment. You're almost second. Okay. Would you prefer someone else move it so then I can do that amendment? Councillor Wilkie: Oh, Jess, you're happy to move this? I'll move it. Yeah. Councillor Glasgow will be the seconder. And he will go to the toilet too. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: No, no. I prefer not to move it. Oh, with this one in? Doesn't matter. Someone can take it out if they don't like it. Mayor Wellington: Well, either you move it with that in or someone will move it without it. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Yeah, I'll move it with that in. Someone will move it without it. Jess is second. And Councillor Glasgow is second. It's a two-step process. If you don't all agree, anyway. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah. So the... Deputy Mayor Stockwell: As we're going there, the additional item that I've suggested, which is a change to what's recommended, is that it relates to the provision of being able to ask a question and suggest that Section 26.3 include the words, Council make a request from or through

00:41:00 the Chairperson for further information or ask a question before the motion or amendment is seconded and being... After the motion is seconded. After the motion is seconded or amendment is seconded once the Councillor who moved the motion has been given the opportunity to speak. The reason I put that in... We had one example this morning, which was a genuine question, I believe, that occurred between the motion being moved and seconded and trying to seek clarification before the speaker had spoken. We eventually found that the speaker needed to speak to answer the question. That's perhaps not that bad. But what I have found is that I... I don't know. In previous meetings, that it's become a tactic also. It's become a tactic to... Before the speaker who's moved the motion has a chance... The person who's moved the motion has a chance to speak. That it's a way of either colouring or putting a taint on the motion before the person has the time to speak.

00:42:00 So it's become a tactic. It's become sometimes used impolitely to put the speaker off. And therefore, I think it's much more in keeping with a long-standing tradition that once you've moved and the motion's been seconded, that you're the first person to speak, that that question shouldn't be interrupted. Mayor Wellington: No, the question isn't moved. How is it that this tactic will be allayed if you're recommending that questions can be asked before the motion is spoken to? Because Part A suggests that... Between... Well, the... Between the motion... Just a second. Between the motion... Between the motion being moved and a seconder seconding, that questions can be asked, which is exactly the same, I would have thought, tactic that you're trying to avoid that you just alluded to. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: You could. But the reason why I left that in is because sometimes someone moves a motion and everyone's not clear and they have to ask questions before they're seconded.

00:43:00 That's why I thought that would be left in. That sometimes you can say, I don't know, that doesn't make sense. Maybe we can do that. And I thought that was appropriate. Oh, I suppose. I'm just raising it as I think that it is polite to let the person speak if it's seconded. And that's what... It's... Like, I know the first time it happened to me, I was actually completely shocked. And I know Councillor Pardon probably wasn't trying to be impolite. He was just trying to... It's enthusiastic. But it's happened a number of times since then where I thought, this is a deliberate tactic, but it's impolite. And I nearly called the point of order because of that. And the tradition is that you don't... But my question is that that could still occur. That's why... It could still occur if it wasn't seconded. But normally, if you rise from the second to the second, it's all very quick. It's only when those big gaps occur is when the motion may be not completely logical or may not make sense to everyone around the table that I thought questions were appropriate. Councillor Wilkie: And Councillor Jurisevic has a question. Councillor Jurisevic: I'll phrase a question to the CEO then. Currently, under our proposed standing orders, when could a question be asked with regard

00:44:00 to a motion? Or an amendment? Speaker 7: It could be asked before the motion is put, you know, when you still do not get to that stage. It could be asked once it's been moved. It could be asked after it's been seconded. And before the mover has spoken. Councillor Jurisevic: So then, in light of that, how is that different from what's on the board? Well, that's a good question. Speaker 7: So, what Councillor Stockwell is proposing is that once the motion has been moved and seconded, the first thing that should happen is the mover should speak to it. There shouldn't be a question in between. Ah, okay. Councillor Jurisevic: That's the only difference. Speaker 7: That's the only variation. And I've discussed this with Councillor Stockwell. I'll probably continue to answer it. Councillor Jurisevic: But I just wanted to clarify what the difference between what we've currently proposed and what Councillor... The amendment that Councillor Stockwell is putting here is... Speaker 7: Yeah. So, what... This is one of these ones that's a bit of a 50-50 call for me. I made the call in the draft that I've presented to Council that I think that those questions

45 minutes in

00:45:00

00:45:00 can sometimes play a useful role, but they are also able to be misused. So, really, it's a matter for the Council to determine which way you want to go on this one. Councillor Pardon: Mr Chair, just a question through you to Councillor Stockwell. Is it you referring to that I moved to the second stage? Is it you referring to an amendment before you spoke to a motion? Is that what you're referring to? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Oh, I forget the first one. I remember when you did it, I thought, you can't do that. Councillor Pardon: I think you're referring to a question. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Yeah, I think it was a question. Mayor Wellington: Yeah, it was a question. Oh, yeah. It was a couple of years ago. Yeah. Yeah, well... And you asked me, as Chair, if you could do it, and I said, yes, you could. Councillor Jurisevic: I'll speak to the... I'll speak to the amendment, or the motion, because it's not an amendment, it's a motion now. I'm happy to support this change, but I'm also happy to support the motion overall, as it appears before us. I think there is an element of merit in the change that's been made by Councillor Stockwell

00:46:00 in that... Well, we have had a number of instances where a question has been asked, and it's been raised after the motion's moved, and before being seconded, so to clarify an element. Somebody may not be comfortable seconding it until they have clarification of what the elements of the motion are. And I do think it is fair that the mover get to speak before a question is raised, so I quite support that. I support the overall change to the model meeting procedures. I think we have gone through a series of understanding of the changes being brought in. They've been brought in by the reviews of the State Government with regard to model meeting procedures, and in fact, our meeting procedures have been far in advance of the model meeting procedures that have been proposed. So I'm happy to see that the changes that have been proposed here have been a review

00:47:00 of how we started the process, how we've, over the short period of time that the Council has been back in, been prepared to not only... I'm sorry, I've been prepared to not only instigate our initial standing orders but review them in due course. I still have one more question for the CEO, if I may, out of his report, and that is where we got to... When did the Sunshine Coast Council... Your report says, Sunshine Coast, that Oscar... CEOs also went from discussions with Oscar that, this is the only significant issue where the organisation is Sunshine Coast Council and head of council in terms of governance arrangements. That's recording of all names that vote on that. We're essentially derived from the Sunshine Coast Council when we de-amalgamated. When did the Sunshine Coast Council introduce this and was that in place when we de-amalgamated? Speaker 7: I believe it was in place. It has been in place for a number of years prior to de-amalgamation. So we chose not to adopt it at that time even though the Sunshine Coast Council was...

00:48:00 Yeah, that's right, because that's an administrative thing and you'll see here that that requirement is not actually in the standing orders, it's in a council decision. So that's the way that they've done it as well. It's how the staff have been instructed to record those votes. So the original standing orders that Sunshine Coast Council had in place in 2014 that we adopted didn't have that provision. It was done through a council decision from Sunshine Coast to record it that way and that's what this is proposing as well. If you have a look at recommendation D of the proposal, that's where the council will make a decision to record it that way. Councillor Jurisevic: Are we aware of any other councils in... Queensland that do that? That record all? Speaker 7: I assume that quite a few would do, quite a lot of the big ones. I'm pretty sure Gold Coast and Brisbane, for example, do it, but I haven't gone through every council. Councillor Jurisevic: Okay. Thank you. So if I may conclude then. I think the recording of how a council votes on every issue is a good outcome also. It's going to negate the politicising of items by councils and would prefer this over a division being called to record voting outcomes,

00:49:00 which can be used and is used as a tool for political gain in some circumstances. The community should have the opportunity to confirm how a council votes on all matters, although this potentially has a shortcomings also. Without recording or live streaming of meetings, such as the general committee and ordinary meetings, which will provide the added opportunity to understand why a council voted away, not just how they voted. I think that's an important differentiation, having the two elements going side by side gets my full support. Councillor Wilkie: Thank you, Joe. Councillor Powell. Councillor Pardon: Yeah, as others have said, and the CEO has said, I'm agnostic. I like the format where councillors can ask questions at any time for good debate here and for understanding of those councillors before they make a decision. I'm sad that Councillor Stockwell over all these years, a couple of years ago, hasn't healed.

00:50:00 Mayor Wellington: Not that he's run the hogs, right? Councillor Pardon: No, never. He was the first one to do it, right? Not the only one. You know, I cut him off at the pass in some prior meetings. Well, you know, I was within standing orders at that particular time to do so. So, yeah, but in the big picture, as I say, whether, if, if other councillors think that there's, you know, various people, I'll say, or councillors taking opportunities to sidetrack a mover of a motion, then this is probably a good thing. Personally, I didn't particularly see it that way. And for the democratic process, as I say, I don't, I'm agnostic with regards to this.

00:51:00 Whether it's seconded or not, opportunities to ask questions doesn't really faze me in any, in any way. As the recording of the way you vote, oh man, I wish they were recorded from 1997, day one. All the decisions I've been in amongst, because I'm quite happy. Mm-hmm. And for my community to see which way I vote on any issue within this council. So having recording is, is no issue at all to me. I'm, I'm quite happy to stand on that. And it's probably a good thing. People really need to know what you stand for as a councillor. I mean, they're voting you're in there. It's a privilege and an honour to have you voted in to be part of the leadership. In the, in the council, to be a little politician in the big country of Australia, in Noosa.

00:52:00 And so more than happy with that. I think anything that, you know, that helps us going forward is a good thing here. So transparency, et cetera. So I think it's good. Councillor Wilkie: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mayor Wellington: Thank you. It's important to note that aspects of our standing orders are now mandated as a result of the BELCARA legislation, through the model meeting procedures, and that council has adopted those model meeting procedures into our standing orders. There was also a best practice guide offered by, through the BELCARA process, and that has been carefully considered in the development of our standing orders. That wasn't mandated but nevertheless, most of the principles in there are being incorporated into our standing orders. This has been on the agenda for some time for Council. The CEO has long been requested to bring it to us and we were for a period there waiting to find out what Belcarra offered in this regard before we could finalise our standing orders.

00:53:00 So what's happening now is part of a process that was already underway. I can see the benefits in terms of noting how each councillor votes at a decision making ordinary or special meeting. The shame of it is, and the reason why we didn't go down this path in comparison once again to the Sunshine Coast Council who do, is because it was long felt that what is important in the process is the decision of council, not the decision of individual councillors. If there's a majority decision, that is the decision of the council and that's what forms the resolution and that's what stands. And thus we avoided this notion of noting who voted in favour or who didn't, because that wasn't as important as the overarching decision of the majority of councillors.

00:54:00 By going back to what I said earlier, the decision of individual councillors is not the decision of individual councillors. By going back and introducing who votes what at each resolution, we are increasing transparency and people can, I guess, look at patterns of voting on behalf of various councillors. But it does move us away from this notion that the overarching position of council is what's important, not individual councillors. I accept that's a price we have to pay for greater transparency. Before I conclude, I just want to acknowledge the incredible number of hours that the executive assistant Kylie Harris put in to helping the CEO develop the standing orders, comparing various documents, working through them on a word by word basis and that was most helpful to us arriving at the sort of decision we're reaching this week.

00:55:00 Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: I fully support the motion as it is, even though I had no problem with questions being asked at any stage of the debate. I appreciate the courtesy that Councillor Stockwell is trying to introduce into the meeting procedures. It's right that these new standing orders come in now after full consideration of the Belcarra reforms and incorporating the model meeting procedures, all intended to improve governance. I've no problem with councillors' names being recorded. As has been said before, we all stand beside and behind our decisions that we've made and we're held accountable for that. And the Mayor's point about the decisions, the net decision being that the vote of the council will also be recorded. So continue to carry great weight. Public question time, which was a suggestion of the best practice guy as part of Belcarra, I think is a very useful idea,

00:56:00 especially in situations where a resident or ratepayer has had a longstanding issue and had trouble perhaps advancing the issue or responses from the council. It's an opportunity to have that brought to the fore and dealt with expeditiously. And in a public forum, I think it's just another way that we can improve our community engagement, as is the letting the community know through better publicity or better links on our website, the availability of petitions, deputations and presentations, which are currently available as avenues through which community members can engage with the council. And also the future question time. And I look forward to the guidelines being drafted up by which respectful and effective interaction between this council and residents and ratepayers can take place in our ordinary meetings.

00:57:00 I support the motion. Councillor Jurisevic: Sorry, Councillor, can I just clarify a question with the CEO before we... Of course. Just on something that you raised there. As far as Belcarra reviews and impacts upon councils, I don't believe we are at the end of the Belcarra review. I believe there's more to come. Oh, there's a lot more to come. Sorry, I got the impression from what you suggested there in your... That was the end of the Belcarra review. No, that's trash. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah. Councillor Bryan, would you like to close? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Yeah, I will. I think it had been a very useful debate on this item. I thought the Mayor's reflection on the balance required between transparency and collegiate responsibility was a very important one. I think it's a very worthwhile consideration, is the purpose of becoming an electorate councillor is to govern for the whole community.

00:58:00 It's not about highlighting how you are different from your colleagues. It would be a shame if recording each motion leads to more of the latter and less of the former collegiate responsibility. I also think, when I'm on reflection just then, that it's really weird that I'm moving a motion to support public questions. Because when it was first raised, I didn't support it. I thought it was going to be an avenue for putting out a soapbox or all the negative Nellies to come in here and have a bit of a chat and get some bile. I don't think it will turn out to be that if we get the guidelines right. So because I didn't actually support the beginning, I did what... It's a good thing to do. I asked people. I asked people how they'd like... If they had a really important question they wanted to put to their council, what would they like to do? How would they do it? I asked them levels of support for old-fashioned letters, emails, phone calls, and presenting a question to a formal council meeting.

00:59:00 And it was quite an interesting process. Most people initially said yes. Emails, obviously. Some people preferred telephone. Email was quite... But then when it got to that last question about public question time, some people said no. But quite a few people said, well, if my other approaches weren't successful, and I think that's where it will become powerful, is people who have gone through a process, feel unsatisfied, and they want to have that question put in a public forum so that those who make the decision are really aware of that concern. I do think that the process around developing applications will require a lot of thought, so we don't bias either the applicant or the submitters. But I think that... But to me, yeah, it could make it quite an interesting process, and one which gives an extra level of involvement of the community, so we're quite happy with the recommendation. The last one, in regards to deputations, is something we've always had in our standing orders.

60 minutes in

01:00:00

01:00:00 But I do think... I've certainly asked the mayor a couple of times, can we have people come in and do this? And I think it is something to promote. I got asked just last week, we've got a group of school students going to work on a term, and they're going to have recommendations about the future sustainability of New South Shire when you come and listen to them. I said, well, maybe they should have a deputation. All councillors should listen to them. There could be a very different ways that both people who vote for us and people who are too young to vote for us can have input into the civic management of our Shire. But all in all, I think the proposed proposal as recommended by the CEO is a good one, plus my little addition. Councillor Wilkie: I put the motion. Those in favour? Against? The motion's carried. Next, item four, update on local government legislative changes and reforms, page 59 of the services and organisation. Again, referred for the significance of the issue. Councillors, any questions of the CEO?

01:01:00 Councillor Jurisevic: I'll move it. Councillor Wilkie: Sorry, I do have a question if I may. Seconded, Councillor Jo. Seconded, Councillor Glasgow. Jo has a motion. Councillor Jo has a question. Councillor Jurisevic: There was an interesting point raised within the report with regard to declaring a conflict of interest before a meeting. I note the intent for a council to declare they have conflict of interest before a meeting, but I assume this only applies if interest is known before a meeting. We've had situations where the conflict doesn't arise until discussion is opened and then a conflict may be determined. Is there some way or mechanism to trigger that? Or give feedback to the Belcarra Review if they are heading down this path with regard to when a councillor understands or is aware of their conflict arising? Yeah, it's a good question. Speaker 7: That proposal's in a discussion paper and it's something that's coming further down

01:02:00 the track in a future legislative change. So the department has put out this discussion paper to identify how they think these things should be managed. The department, through the Local Government Association, has also set up a group of alleged wise CEOs who are giving the department some feedback. There is such a thing? Sorry. Giving some feedback to the department on the practicalities of what they're looking at. I happen to be on that group along with some of Brisbane, CEO Rocky, a few others. And it's that practicalities that the department... So the theory's good. It's just that it's a good thing. The theory, a lot of what they're proposing is good. Councillor Jurisevic: It's how it works in practice. Speaker 7: Just the practice of it. Yeah. And that's one of the issues that we're going to raise with them as we go through that process. In fact, it was a week and a half ago we had one of those meetings. Councillor Jurisevic: The question then alludes to, you know... Councillor Pardon: Open the door again.

01:03:00 Councillor Jurisevic: That there is no negativity if a councillor doesn't raise his conflict ahead of the meeting, purely and simply because he wasn't aware of... Correct. ...the nature of the conflict. Speaker 7: And I can recall instances, I think Councillor Stockwell had one where a skewer conflict arose during the debate because it brought in another issue. Councillor Jurisevic: That's exactly what I'm alluding to. Speaker 7: That was the exact example I was thinking of. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So, yeah. In summary, the department's still got a bit of work to do, I think, between converting the idea into something that will work in practice. Councillor Jurisevic: Has... Sorry, further question if I may? Yes. Has the state given any indication of where else these further reviews may be taking councils in the future with regard to the changes that they intend to propose? Speaker 7: Well, I've tried to set in in my report what we know, what we can currently see coming, which is, in other words... Well, go back a step.

01:04:00 So, Belcarra 1, which came in last year, that was the one that... Yeah. ...the council made the decisions on back in December, which are about code of conduct, all that sort of changes. Belcarra 2, which is currently before parliament, my understanding it's probably going back into parliament in the next week or two. That will come out, you know, assumingly in the next month or so. And that's what I've set out in the report. That's with regard to the meeting... Standard meeting procedures and the like that we've already adopted. Yeah. So, the next one is about some discussion papers that the department have published, which is really about Belcarra 3, and that covers a range of issues, again, which... What I've done in the report is to highlight examples of some of the things that they're looking at. That hasn't formed its way or found its way into draft legislation yet. It's simply ideas that the department's looking at about how they might improve things. My understanding is that there's more beyond that that the department are looking at, and I think that will come out... Probably in the next six or 12 months. And I assume the department will use a similar process that they're doing now, which is to

01:05:00 put out some discussion papers or talking points to get people to say, well, will this work or won't it work? But, yeah, more to come, Joe. Councillor Jurisevic: So, again, as has been the proposal till now, they've made a series of proposals of changes. There has been opportunity for feedback, and there have been changes made based on that feedback, as to what will and won't work? Speaker 7: My experience is that changes tend to happen between the discussion paper and the draft legislation. So, in other words, if they have a... Putting out ideas and say, well, this will work or won't, you give feedback. By the time it gets into the draft legislation, it's then incorporated. My experience, though, is once it's in the draft legislation, it's generally pretty well locked down. We saw that with Belcarra II, which is the one currently before State Parliament. So, there are some things in there that, like, the Government Association and other bodies don't agree with. It's been through their internal committee process asking... This is through State Parliament asking for feedback. Nothing changed. So, once you're into the draft legislation, it tends to go through as is.

01:06:00 Very rare for that to be changed at that stage. Councillor Jurisevic: But there are elements of voting procedures or electoral procedures and that, that have been proposed that are currently not being adopted, but still... There are elements of voting procedures or electoral procedures and that, that have been proposed that are currently not being adopted, but still, have been considered for review and still at least in the thinking process. Speaker 7: Yeah. Some of the examples about that were the Minister for local government flagged a couple of proposals. One was around public funding of candidate elections. Others were around preferential voting in terms of councillors. And the other one was around election caps, where they cap the amount of spending that individuals or candidates can spend. So, no one can buy an election, so to speak. That's true. All of those who are flagged in original discussion papers, they're not in the current legislation, but my understanding is the minister still supports those and will probably bring them in in the next tranche to apply from 2024, which would be the following council.

01:07:00 Councillor Jurisevic: More a matter of timing than a matter of issue. Yep. Speaker 7: Okay, thank you. Councillor Glasgow: Jess. Yeah, I had just a quick clarification of something I was reading last week. On 61.2.1, first I'll point about mandatory training for, I'll read it out for the audience. Mandatory training for the candidates and councillors. Anyone wanting to nominate as a candidate for a local government election, including existing councillors, will now be required to complete mandatory training before they can lodge their nomination with the Electoral Commission of Queensland. The intent of the new requirement is to ensure that all candidates are fully informed. As candidates and councillors, this is the bit that gets me. No details are yet available, but when the training will occur or will undertake it. Your question is exactly what that means.

01:08:00 Speaker 7: So that is in the current draft legislation, which is before Parliament. That's the requirement that is, I expect to go through Parliament in the next week or two. Okay. And what I'm sure is happening now is the Department of Local Government will be liaising with the Electoral Commission of Queensland to say, well, this is a great idea, how are we going to implement it, how do you do it? I had a conversation with, I can't remember who it was, someone from the Department about a week and a half ago, where they're talking about developing both online and face-to-face sessions. So you can go online and have to work your way through that you, you know, have read this, you might do a little quiz, tick it off, and eventually you get a certificate to say you've done the online course, and if you've got that, then you can nominate, or that they can run additional face-to-face sessions. So one of the practical feedback, I talked before to, in response to Joe's questions about the practical feedback from people in the industry is, well, you know, you're dealing with councillors out of Bullier and Bourke and so on, how do you have face-to-face sessions with candidates there who might live on the land or what it's going to be?

01:09:00 So that online and that multiple ability to be able to do it in different ways is what I think the Department's looking at. Councillor Glasgow: So in a nutshell, it's not that little training camp we did at Gympie and making everyone go to that. Speaker 7: No, this would be more of a obligation type issue where people need to click through an online training course or to attend and be signed off that you attended the training before you can nominate. Speaker 3: Joe and Frank. Councillor Jurisevic: And just following on from that, I'm assuming that the reason that it was councillors as well as councillor candidates or mayoral candidates to undertake that training would be so that everybody's on the level playing field with the current conditions as they apply before that election. Okay.

01:10:00 Speaker 7: And I think it's also to make sure every candidate goes into the election on the same basis. Yes. No special deals. Councillor Jurisevic: An equal understanding. There's no suggestion that they don't understand the legislation before they nominate. But it's actually not a test that you might have. Councillor Wilkie: I'll talk to the motion. I just have a question. If the changes that we brought in the last motion about questioning were, when they are introduced, that would mean that this, this will not be able to take place because we've got a motion, a motion's been moved and seconded. Is that correct? Councillor Jurisevic: Correct. Until the, until the, until the, until the mover has spoken to the motion. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: But to give councillor various, he actually was just at the, it was a, at the same time moment that he said the question and not moved it. Councillor Wilkie: Councillor Wellington, you wish to say something. Oh, no, I won't answer questions. You're so mean. Mayor Wellington: You're so mean. Very briefly, just to point out that council has, of course, repealed our former code of conduct and adopted the mandated

01:11:00 statewide code of conduct that came in with Belcarra and we went a step further, which we weren't required to do. And we each signed a declaration to abide by the new councillor code of conduct. We have also adopted the essential model meeting procedures as we discussed in the previous resolution. And we've also adopted the investigation policy, which again was a compliant mechanism necessary to abide by the Belcarra changes with regard to investigation of complaints about council's code of conduct. So we're doing exactly what we need to do at this point in time to abide by the state regulations. This resolution simply is a clarification of the state regulations. This resolution simply is a clarification of the state regulations. This resolution simply is a clarification of the state regulations. And it's a clarification about where the Belcarra changes are at. And it notes, of course, that we have to keep abreast and that is the CEO's responsibility to ensure that we are aware of those changes when they come into play.

01:12:00 The draft legislation will soon be passing through the parliament, and that means that, once again, we will have to abide by everything contained within that draft legislation. The draft legislation will soon be passing through the parliament, and that means that, once again, we will have to abide by everything contained within that draft legislation. Because they had a great deal of influence over the legislation which is currently before Parliament and I think that it behoves us to wait for these processes to roll out rather than anticipate them because certainly the LGAQ was influential in making some very significant changes to the current legislation.

01:13:00 I just want to point out on a personal note, I look forward to the day when in Queensland there are spinning caps on electoral campaigns to create a genuine level playing field for all candidates for local government elections. Councillor Wilkie: And Councillor Houghton? Councillor Pardon: Councillor Houghton, yeah, and just to follow on from the Mayor's comments there, I look forward to the day when they put caps on State Government. People that are running for Parliament in the State Government. Here, here. Because often, as I see this, there's a lot of one-way streets here and I look forward to the day when Parliamentarians get some legislation where they have codes of conduct because they stand behind Parliamentary privilege and belt people around and with no consequences back to them. And of course we don't have that privilege. So...

01:14:00 Yeah, it's interesting. I guess I've always been a bit of a Ned Kelly when it comes to this stuff and whilst I see Balcarra and new legislation imposed on local governments like us because we are creatures of the State and if we look at what's happened in the past in regards to amalgamations, et cetera, what big governments can do to us. And it seems to me that there's been some elements across the State of Queensland, councils, et cetera. There probably needs to be some tightening, but I still say that, you know, do as, not do as I do, do as I say, still resonates from big governments and imposing certain conditions on council. And they see the way forward. Whether it's regards to preferential voting or, you know, and we see the change to the

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01:15:00 mayors in the report where the preferential voting comes in and they were looking at introducing it to all candidates and we'll see what happens in 2024. Just what next steps they take. But I do think that, you know, I think it's a bit of a challenge. I do congratulate Local Government Association of Queensland, the CEO's group. I'm sure they have input as well when they sit down and look at the big picture. What's the knock-on effects of all this legislation? As for training, gee, I'm struggling to get a certificate, Mr. CEO, and I've no good exams. Never was. So, you know, might have to print one out. Call me. So I could run again with a pass.

01:16:00 But certainly I'd be interested to see what the training is and what they're talking about with regards to candidates. But I certainly think big governments need to look more at themselves as well with regards to their actions and the way, the transparency that they need to impose on themselves. And if, if we look in recent times, you know, we've got a lot of, you know, we've got a lot of, you know, you do wonder about some of their transparencies and what they declare when they stand up and spruiken Parliament and what they're interested in and what they own and what they possibly own, et cetera, et cetera. I just don't like it when, I suppose, the power, the big powers, whether it be state or federal, impose certain directions on local governments without taking certain steps to get their own house in order. So, thank you. Thank you, Councillor Pardon. Councillor Wilkie: Councillor Stockwell.

01:17:00 Deputy Mayor Stockwell: First, I do have a question. It's just to the CEO. And it's about something that the Minister mentioned when he was here. He mentioned a system that had vote cards. You know, he remembered that after admitting he was an amateur staphologist, like Anthony Green is a professional one. And he suggested a mechanism for councillors like ours as a whole. Has that been aired anywhere else in your? Speaker 7: No, that hasn't come up at all. Any of the discussions or information the department's put out, I think it was an aspirational goal for the Minister that it's not been on the same level as, you know, election caps and other issues. It hasn't come up at all. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Okay. We've made a very even playing field. Councillor Jurisevic: Sorry, can I just clarify? You're referring to how to vote cards or the actual voting slips with the rotational? Yeah, the voting slips. I thought neither has come up. I thought that was a great reform that the Tribune looked at.

01:18:00 Speaker 7: I don't need to take that one on notice. I can answer that now. The answer is no. No. The Electoral Commission of Queensland runs the election process. They're the one that define those rules and that's not a current option. Councillor Jurisevic: Okay. In light of that, is it something we could advocate for? Speaker 7: I've actually got the Electoral Commissioner of Queensland here tomorrow having a chat about next year's election. I'll have a chat to him about it. What a happy coincidence. There we go. And they're going around all the councils in Queensland starting to prepare for the election and just about all the administrative matters. I'm just meeting with him tomorrow to talk that through. Councillor Wilkie: Brian, you want to speak to that one? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Just briefly. I should reassure Councillor Parton that the local government department have been running training for candidates previously.

01:19:00 If I remember correctly, the person who ran it in Noosa last time around was one young Robert Abbott. So he might give you the pass mark. You probably know. I don't know. I'm not sure. Councillor Wilkie: You can get the pass mark. But you can get the pass mark. Councillor Jurisevic: I can see you've got it. I can see you've got it. I can see you've got it. I have a question. I'm not sure. No. No. No. No.

01:20:00 Around the state, so one of the things that this does do is it gives us a chance every time that one of these changes are proposed from the state to review our own procedures and implement further changes and that rather than suggesting there are no, as has been suggested, that this council isn't willing to embrace, there are plenty of opportunities, particularly with these changes going forward, to go through due process and have these issues brought before us and considered as has been undertaken by the CEO in this case. And I welcome the reports, all four reports that the CEO has brought forward with regard to the changes that are being proposed. Councillor Wilkie: Thank you, John. We need to close and put the motion as in favour. Against, motions carried. Item 5, review of issues raised in ratified motion on June 20. That's page 67 of the Services and Organisation Committee agenda.

01:21:00 Thank you, councillors. Any questions? Councillor Jurisevic: Joe. With regard to ratified motion item 4, providing details of council groups and forums, do we, I was thinking, what about appointments made outside, to outside groups, i.e. councillors sitting on a state or regional body that we, as represented to council, are those actually currently documented and listed anywhere? They're all documented in the council decision. Speaker 7: So, for example, I'll take you. For example, if you don't mind, Joe. Regional roads. Yeah, I forget the name of it, the Regional Roads Group, whatever it is. So, there's a council decision that would appoint Councillor Jurisevic to the Regional Roads Group, which is on the minutes and so on. There'd be no issue in sort of collating those over time to put them into one area. I have a feeling, and I need to go back and check, it might also be on the council website under your heading. Councillor Jurisevic: That's the one I wasn't certain of.

01:22:00 But, I mean, if we're going to list these, would it be prudent to list those also in the same, in the same area? Yeah, it could do that. It's not an issue. Speaker 7: I think it's, yeah, I think it's a minor thing, just what council decisions it ought to be on that, I think. Councillor Wilkie: Any questions, Councillor Wellington? I'll move it, please. I'll move Councillor Wellington. I'll second it. Second it, Councillor Glasgow. Speak to the motion, Councillor Wellington. Mayor Wellington: I need to say that, no doubt, given that the notified motion is back on the agenda for Thursday's ordinary meeting, there'll be ample opportunity to discuss elements of it then. Speaker 3: Yeah. Councillor Wilkie: I'll just say I support the recommendation. Greater communication is always welcome. Greater and more extensive communication is always welcome. As is noted in the report, the appointments to these reference groups and focus groups and stakeholder forums,

01:23:00 they're all noted on the website in a public fashion already in the council reports. But there is great, great value in having them all lodged in the one location on the council website. So I think that's a very useful addition to councils, the way council informs its community and provides information. So I think that's a very useful initiative. Also note that the council's records of meetings, the committee contains a lot of extensive information. The name of the committee, the date of the committee meeting, council committee members and attendants. Councillors in attendance, apologies, full list of the items considered, details of any conflict of interest, declarations, settled.

01:24:00 Thank you to all of the parties that have participated on the manner. What that conflict of interest was. Details of movers and seconders of motions. Details of all recommendations, made to council from the Committee and details of any changes made to staff recommendations. These are all part of the meeting record for our committee meetings. Very extensive webinar minutes and meeting record is semantics. I think we have very open processes in terms of allowing people with interests in items on committees or full meeting agendas to find out what occurred at those meetings and I support the recommendation. Councillor Jo. Councillor Jurisevic: I too support the recommendation. It's been suggested that council seems to be closed to change and reform, but we have not.

01:25:00 It's clearly alluded through the process of this review is that council is willing to embrace changes that have gone through a due diligence and a number of detail, a level of scrutiny to ensure that the changes are worthy of merit before being implemented. We do review them as it gets to the state changes that are being implemented. The one item that crops up again here is the rescinding of the council resolution with regard to committees being exempted from keeping minutes. I think that just shows a lack of an understanding of how our committee process works and how those recommendations are recorded through the process in going all the way through to ordering meetings in general, committee in general. Councillor Wilkie: Council's respected motion. Just to close, Council, I don't know if the motion goes in favour.

01:26:00 As against, motion's carried. Item six, transport strategy resourcing. It's a report directed to general committee. Welcome. Councillor Jurisevic: Oh, wrong. Welcome, Craig. Hang on. I've got to change. Councillor Wilkie: And hello, Brian. Good morning. Report from Carl Billingham. Request for extra resourcing of the transport strategy. Council's questions for Brian or Craig. Mayor Wellington: I'll move it. I'll move it. Councillor Wilkie: Seconded. Seconded. Councillor Pardon. Moved. Councillor Wellington. Councillor Martin, would you speak? Mayor Wellington: No, I mean, this is just a formality. There's a significant amount of work obviously being done by our transport team down in infrastructure, and they need further resourcing, particularly to perpetuate the rollout of the Walk and Ride to School Programme and other behaviour change opportunities, so it makes sense to increase the resourcing. This is just a formality, really, to support that. Councillor Pardon: Councillor Pardon. Yeah, Mr Chairman.

01:27:00 Yeah, totally support this. We need these resources. Traffic and transport, one of the biggest problems that Noosa Council faces at this time going forward. So unless we resource it properly, we're not going to achieve the results with regards to that traffic movements in the Shire. And I'll reiterate all the time, this particular issue, we're not going to achieve the results in 2021. We know that in the community, and thus resources, we just have to resource it. We have a traffic and transport levy. We have the money to do this, and I think going forward, there'll be probably more resources. Well, it will be required to reach our optimum in Noosa Shire with regards to the traffic. We know, we spoke about it many times. What we see at Christmas and Easter, we're going to see every day in this Shire.

01:28:00 Everyone wants to come to Noosa, the little green mecca, and as the growth south of us increases, plus our own growth, A, be it slow, another 7,000 or 8,000 people to move into this Shire as well, this problem's only going to exacerbate over time, so I totally support this. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Just a question. So achieving impact in behaviour change requires both skill and experience. It's not something that someone can just do. Within the thinking of this, are we looking at a behaviour change specialist for this role? Are we looking, to me, are we looking at a behaviour change specialist? Speaker 3: Through the Chair, we do have people in mind who are out there that we'd be seeking to, or we'd be hoping would apply to this position. So there's people that have worked in a similar role for this, and we'd be anticipating that people with previous skills, knowledge and experience would be applying for this position.

01:29:00 Brian, sorry, Brian. Councillor Pardon: Yeah, and through the Chair, I'd probably add to that, that there are programs developing. Speaker 8: We've developed these change management programs. It's the delivery of those programs that we'd be looking at through those staff. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I'll support it. And obviously, I have extensive experience in behaviour change, but working with farmers rather than people catching buses. What about farmers catching buses? No, they catch bugs. By the way, both are moving.

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01:30:00 Oh, I'm sorry. That one's not going to get booked by us, Joe. And yeah, the role of behaviour change is achieving the sort of sustainable living outcomes that we're seeking with our environment strategy, with our transport strategy. They can be the most efficient form of investment if you get the right people and the right programs. But then I've also had to review programs of many, many, many millions of dollars that have failed to achieve any significant change in behaviour because they were delivered with the wrong programs and the wrong people. So that's why I asked the question. I think it is important. I think we can make big gains, and as councillors, we can just approve the budget and rely on our staff and hopefully get the right quality and experienced people to apply for it. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: Councillor JOHNSTON. Councillor Jurisevic: Look, I fully support this position.

01:31:00 Working closely with the schools and all the rest of it can and having a consistent person, consistent base there will be an important part in developing that relationship between the schools and dealing with the issues around schools and transport management around schools at those particular points of time in the mornings and the afternoons when it challenges the rest of our transport network. So that whilst we do that now, just having a dedicated staff member to facilitate that will only enhance that running out of the programs that have already been developed to help facilitate that. The other behaviour change issues, as the staff have alluded to, will be dealt with hopefully by the person we do. And knowing in part, with past experience, how these sort of programs work in being implemented and the success I've had in the past, I can only hope that with the right person that we'll continue to work with. And we'll continue to alleviate some of our transport issues in and around those areas. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: Councillor JOHNSTON. Any other councillors to speak? Councillor Linton, do you wish to close?

01:32:00 Mayor Wellington: Councillor Linton. Given that the issue's been raised about behaviour change, let's not pretend that behaviour change is a simple matter. We have already engaged a behaviour change specialist consultants in the process of developing the current actions around Go Noosa. And so obviously, you know, it's not something that we're going to do. We're afraid to engage in people with greater skills in this area than our own. However, if you note the increase in bus usage as a result of the Go Noosa trials was 47% over Christmas and Easter, 47% more people using buses. However, once the Go Noosa trials were over, it resulted in zero impact in increased bus uses outside of those trials, outside of those peak times. So creating behaviour change is tricky. As we've always said, everyone wants better public transport to free up the roads so they can drive their cars. And trying to get people to change, you know, decades long behaviours is never going to be easy.

01:33:00 And let's not pretend that we're suddenly going to be able to get everyone onto an e-bike and a bus. Nevertheless, what we do want to do is target young people particularly. It's better for the road congestion. It's better for their health, et cetera, if they take more active transport to school. And so this is a terrific initiative that's already paying benefits in the three schools that have been targeted thus far. And the efforts required will be enhanced by having a dedicated officer focused on this area. I also want to point out in relation to public transport that there will, I believe, be another report to Council, hopefully at the next round of meetings, that will explain at long last to people what Council's role is with regard to public transport because that is clearly not understood properly.

01:34:00 There's a lot of assumptions out there that Council control public transport. We've now had legal advice in that regard as to how far we can and can't go. And that information will be available to the public shortly. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: Thank you, Mr Mayor. And put the motion those in favour. Against? Motions carried. Thank you. Thank you, Brian. Item seven. Orealla Crescent Bridge. Expressions of interest. Report direct to committee. Welcome, Mark. Good morning. Council, is there any questions for Mark? Joe? Councillor Jurisevic: Yeah, Mark. What are the challenges with this bridge that mean we want to get out to an expression of interest as opposed to having bridge companies already able to transport people? And what is the need for a tender for the work required? Speaker 5: If we were to seek tender straight to the market, we have to spend a lot more time and effort designing, coming up with a concept, or even redesign ourselves, versus the design

01:35:00 and construct process through a shortlist group of contractors. It enables us to do less of that prior design work and work more collaboratively with contractors. We know that contractors are seeking their industry experience in finding solutions. We know that this is a high impact area. It's a major thoroughfare. So we would look to work with a contractor seeking their input into the design process rather than dictating to them, here's a design prepared by an engineer who doesn't know how to build it necessarily, but knows there's a compliant bridge. So undertaking the expression of interest process, we can narrow down the market. We can know who's going to be available. And work only directly with those who are interested and serious about helping us seek our outcomes. Councillor Jurisevic: I think that's a little bit off quite where I was heading. Given that we've just undertaken works like the Mary River Bridge and the Old Noosa Road

01:36:00 Bridge and the like, I mean, clearly we've got a capacity within Council to design or design. Is there some specific challenges associated with the Orealla Bridge that differentiate Speaker 5: Thank you. And we're working through defects on those projects. So those... Councillor Jurisevic: So this is of a similar nature to those? Similar nature to those. Thank you. That's all I was trying to clarify. Sorry. I think we've been consistent with what we've done in the past, and this is... The approach isn't some way different to those that we have... Speaker 5: I suppose in the past we didn't do expression of interest but with time of the essence and expression of interest narrows down the field that we can then deal directly with a smaller Okay. That's all I wanted to clarify. Thank you. Can I stop that? So have we ruled out cathodic protection? We have ruled it out at this point in Deputy Mayor Stockwell: time. There's no need for me to ask the question, what's the sentence that says this is the standard on solution, appropriateness, market, expertise, property, cost, control, design, visibility, and likely traffic and prevention impacts on the

01:37:00 surrounding area means. Sorry, it was a very long-winded sentence. So is that a redundant question? Yes, it is, because we're not going down that way. Otherwise, there's really only the solution appropriateness and market expertise thing that I was looking at, but if we're not going down that way, it doesn't matter. Councillor Jurisevic: But one will think that the locality of this bridge will create a number of challenges with regard to closure of the road network and diversions that are going to have to be put in place to, and the periods of time that are going to have to be in place for not only local residents, but those who pass through those areas. Is that correct? That's correct. What sort of time frame, I'll say until we get an expression of interest, I guess it's not, but what sort of time frame do we think that this may be impacting on local Speaker 5: residents? What's the benefit of going through an expression of interest that we can put that in there as a requirement to provide an opinion of what the impact may be. So it's, I think, premature for me to try and guess a time frame. I would

01:38:00 suggest, off the record, somewhere 10 weeks potentially. We have commissioned a traffic study into the detour, the impacts to motorists and the local community, which we can make available. But again, the whole purpose of the expression of interest is to seek industry's best knowledge, get them to provide that to us, and we can make a more educated planning and present that to the council and the community and start that consultation process as soon as possible, rather than waiting for a potential long tender period and we get a response that, again, we really don't, Councillor Jurisevic: aren't happy with at that time. I'm assuming an element of that might could be pre-fab components that could be brought to site so that the downtime of removal and replacement could be minimised. We will be completely Speaker 5: pushing for pre-fabrication to minimise on-site construction, noise, Councillor Pardon: dust, etc. Moved. Moved by Councillor Parry. Second. Second by Councillor Jurisdictive. Yeah, only that,

01:39:00 Councillors, we need to move the case because we have grant funding tied up with timing issues here and I think this is a good way to go through expressions of interest. As staff have already answered those questions, I won't go there. The thing in amongst this is we're learning as we go forward. We learned various problems, Unity Water out at Cooroy. We know and we've actually taken a submission, I think, to the local government association or we're going to, with regards to the new business model of Telstra, Unity Water, Energex. Probably not so much Unity Water. I think we have a certain rapport with Unity Water. We might have opportunities on this bridge to actually, you know, work with them because they're looking at, you know, upgrades themselves. But certainly, down in Hilton Purris, we certainly learned about the costs with regards to Telstra, NBN, etc. These costs, when you get, you

01:40:00 don't really know them until you get involved with the whole situation, then they can blow your budget to pieces, as has happened on Hilton Terrace where you do an estimate and find out, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars through these various groups that have, or businesses that have monopolies. So, but what I'd say is, you know, if we can start today and get stuck in ASAP, this needs to be taken forward and build this bridge. There's a lot of discussion about whether we should upgrade the old bridge, but we got beyond that. And once the Federal Government, and I'd like to thank the Federal Government for those grants as well. I think without them, we'd be looking at a whole, maybe a different proposition altogether. So, I thank staff too for their work. So, we need to get on with it. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah, Councillor, stick to the motion.

01:41:00 Councillor Jurisevic: I've got another question for Joe. We have raised the issue of Telstra and other third-party services have been raised in other construction projects, and I'm aware that they are involved in this project. How are we going to manage or ameliorate the impact of third-party entities that have services running along that bridge with the removal and reconstruction of the bridge? Speaker 5: So, we've already engaged all the relevant stakeholders, as Councillor Parton suggested. New Waters are actually going to provide the services for free, because they are looking to upgrade their facilities in any case. So, that's a one-time offer for this financial year. Excellent. We've worked with Telstra, who initially came with... Three? As we've... A big number. With a big number. A lot of cable being pulled back. We've done some work with their representative and come up with a temporary solution that is a fraction of the original cost.

01:42:00 Okay. So, we've actually engaged them. We've got verbal agreements in place that have taken the infrastructure costs from multi-million down to less than half a million at this stage. So, we're engaging early, planning early, and we've got the buy-in. Councillor Jurisevic: So, it'd be fair to say the lessons learned from past projects have been able to be implemented on this project, and we'll see us implementing newer methodologies of dealing with these entities going forward to get better results. Speaker 5: There's been a lot of lessons learned from past projects that have been able to be implemented and we're trying to actively roll them into every project at this point in time. Speaker 3: And I think a key part of that is planning, getting ahead. And to date, we've been design and delivery in one year, and now we're starting to plan, which allows us to engage early with the service providers. Councillor Jurisevic: The only concern that that raises for me is from a timeframe perspective. Whilst they're willing and understanding, how do we ensure that their timeframe meets our timeframe? We haven't got there quite yet, have we?

01:43:00 Speaker 5: We haven't got there quite yet, have we? Councillor Jurisevic: So, there is still a potential that they could hold up the timing of the... Speaker 5: I doubt they would hold up. It's working collaboratively and rather than operating at arm's length, making them part of our project plan, which we've, to date, provided them updates on our timeline, and we're actively engaging them on a weekly, if not monthly basis, so they're aware of where we're at and how they need to interact. Councillor Jurisevic: So, having them at the table at the earliest stage and along the way is the way of trying to eliminate any unnecessary delays. Speaker 3: Absolutely. Thank you. And if required, we can raise it up to higher levels and try and influence at higher levels. That's all right. Thank you. Tony. Mayor Wellington: Yeah, this has been a tricky job for staff, and particularly in terms of budgeting, because the cost really did escalate markedly over time as more and more was discovered.

01:44:00 So, that the original grant of just under a million has been more than doubled, thankfully, by the federal government. And in that regard, I would like to acknowledge the efforts of a member for White Bay, Lou O'Brien, who's been extremely supportive of this project, and I'd also like to thank a member for Nurses, Sandy Bolton, for providing a lot of support as well. Councillor Wilkie: Thank you. Any other councillors wish to speak? Councillor Parton wish to close? No, it's been... Okay. Councilors, I'd like to call a five minute refreshment break. Oh, yes, I am, sir. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Craig. Thank you, General.

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01:51:00 All right, gallery's live? Councillor Jurisevic: Yes, gallery's live. Councillor Wilkie: Okay, welcome back. We've declared the meeting open again. Item 8 we're up to, which is the Cooroy Hinterland Playground Project Update. Welcome, Mr Brennan and Mr Michael Shade. Hi, Paul. Paul, just a question. I noticed in the recent activities, sorry, I noticed on page 14

01:52:00 of your report, you mentioned a comprehensive community engagement plan that's been developed. Yes. And I just wondered if you were selling yourself short and not including that in recent activities. Or have I missed something? Speaker 8: Well, through the chair, I think that's item... The next item? Councillor Jurisevic: No, this one. No, it's a little list of them. I'm sorry, I'm decreasing the interest. Councillor Wilkie: I'm talking about page 14 of the Cooroy Hinterland. Playground Project Update, and page 14 was the last page of the report. You mentioned a comprehensive community engagement plan that's been developed. Speaker 8: So if you look at page 11, this is a bit cryptic, sorry, but the last dot point towards the top of the page, it says commencement of a dedicated project resource for assisting with communications and community engagement. One of the outcomes of that was that they developed a communications plan for us. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah, but it's actually been completed, hasn't it?

01:53:00 Correct. Yes, that's right, that's, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Any other questions for Paul, councillors? Someone like to move it? I'll move it. I'll second. Second, Councillor Pardon, move Councillor Glasgow. Frank, did you have a question? No? No, no. No, Councillor Glasgow, do you wish to speak to that motion? No, it's not on there. No, you said? Councillor Pardon: Okay. Councillor Pardon? Yeah, yeah, I will, Mr. Chairman, speak to it. Yeah, and thanks, staff, for all your efforts so far, and once again, we've done a lot of public consultation on this matter. Consultation goes back a long way, as the Mayor pointed out, at various meetings, whether in house here or whether he's been at, out in the public arena out there, selling the message. But this is more, if you ratchet to the big picture, this is more than just a playground.

01:54:00 Whilst the playground, I guess, for this councillor, is the optimum, being an all-abilities playground. If we look with regards to parking issues, we're looking at 60 car parks to be built here, and I'd suggest, and I think people, everyone would concede, we should be doing those. So, this particular infrastructure first, so they're in place. But also, the pedestrianisation of the area. Now, it's been long talked about in, uh, Cooroy with regards to linkages between the CBD and the library and safety issues across that road. So, here's an opportunity here to kill a lot of birds with one big stone here. We can pedestrianise the area. We can upgrade more. They say they've got parking issues out there, and I've no doubts at certain times they have.

01:55:00 And also, for the town itself, and for the Shire itself, with regards to this all-abilities playground, nature-based. So, I think when you put all these elements together, it'll be a fantastic outcome. And I'd say for Cooroy, but I'd say not just for Cooroy. This is for the whole of the Shire and, um, so, uh, yeah, I really support the motion going forward that we should, um, get on with it and, um, yeah, build this great facility. And the facilities around it. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: How's it going? Mayor Wellington: Um, yeah, look, we could simply buy a playground out of the box, and it'd look like just about every other playground on the planet. Uh, but this is Noosa, and here in Noosa, we like to do things exceptionally well, and

01:56:00 that's the intention with this playground, is to have an exceptional playground. And, um, it's not just a playground, of course, it goes well beyond that, uh, because it also includes, uh, new car parking, new public facilities, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, but we do want, this is a, this is a place-making opportunity for Noosa and for Cooroy, and I'll just take everyone back. Thank you. Thanks to the flak we received when we, uh, uh, budgeted to do the, uh, boardwalk between Little Cove and National Park, and everyone said, you know, why are you spending all this money on the boardwalk? And then when they saw it, they said, oh, now we understand. And that boardwalk, uh, is actually, uh, part of the attraction of Noosa now. Images of it are going around the world, and councillors owes at the master builders, uh, awards on Saturday night. Mr Hutchinson's contractors, the construction who built the boardwalk won two awards there for that boardwalk. And that's the sort of recognition that Noosa enjoys, because we do like to set high benchmarks, and because we like to do things well and do them properly. And that's exactly what this playground is going to be. It will be a unique playground, bespoke, carefully designed,

01:57:00 placemaking opportunity for Cooroy and for Noosa. And I'm sure that once we get through the process of tendering and construction, and people see what they've received, I think they will be very proud of the result. And ideally, that's what we would like to see, greater pride in our community for the place of residence. Thank you. Councillor Jurisevic: Thank you, Noosa. Joe. Firstly, a question for staff. Councillor Parton mentioned it, and there was a question raised on Facebook actually over the weekend with regard to this being an all abilities playground. What have we envisaged so far in the proposals going forward to make this an all abilities playground for all to enjoy?

01:58:00 Speaker 8: Sure, through the Chair. All abilities is obviously quite a comprehensive concept. It's a term that, I have to say, based on our research and seeing what's happening out there, it's also a constantly evolving space in terms of what playgrounds are being delivered. For us, we've embedded in the current design concept a number of fairly things you would intuitively expect. Wide, flat pathways that can allow able-bodied access to the majority portions of the playground. And as well as wheelchair access? That's correct, yeah. We've envisaged that a lot of the landscaping we're putting in will involve plants that will allow people who are visually impaired to appreciate a more sensory experience than they would have if it was fenced off. So they're not fencing off areas. Having said that, we are planning to fence the perimeter of the playground to avoid the need, to minimise risks of children wandering up through the creek and onto the road.

01:59:00 And that, to an extent, covers all abilities. There will be portions of the playground that won't necessarily be accessible for all. Especially, for example, those in wheelchairs. But the vast majority will be. Access to the water in some way, shape, or form? Yes, that's right. So some of the water play features we've got will have areas that will be able to be accessed by all, basically. But the way that we're going to address this is a very brief to the contractors that they must emphasise that aspect of the design. Councillor Jurisevic: Look, Rob, this is a great project going forward. And I think that it'll be interesting to see what does come out of the experience of interest for what can ... what visionary concepts and visionary equipment can be delivered with

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02:00:00 the latest futuristic endeavours by the future. I mean, I've been to a number of viconic playgrounds. There's one in Toowoomba that up on the summit there at the ridge that, well, there's a whole raft of activities around there. One of the things that draws people to it and their children to it is the playground. There's another one at the Arboretum in Canberra. There's King's Park in WA. I mean, these things are magnificent. They not only draw people, but delight the kids and kids for years to come remember their experiences at the playground. So this isn't, as Councillor Wellington alluded to, just some playground equipment being plopped somewhere for kids to do. This is going to be a sensory experience, a water experience, a raft of experiences as conceptually there. So I think this will be an iconic, as was intended, an iconic feature of the Noosa region for years to come and will be something that I think the community will be proud of once they get to see the overall design and construction.

02:01:00 And conceptual arrangements that we're proposing. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Brian? Yes. This is a project that should really be something that the previous last-term council take great pride in. If there's any great projects, it takes time to get to the point we are currently in. The last time we debated it, I did note that 30 years ago, half a lifetime ago, I did a discussion paper which in part heralded the benefits of nature-based play. Part of what the project then was called the Images of Noosa, which I believe became the first set of Noosa design principles. This is part of our DNA. This is about creating a space that reflects our culture and our image. It's about creating a space that all generations will take home lifetime memories from. But we're only talking about an update, we call it here. And the update, the key thing that's happened since the last time we discussed it, is two 3D images were released.

02:02:00 And the response? Councillor Wilkie: Grant funding. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Oh, and we've had grant funding since. 2.8 million dollars. I think that's worth mentioning somehow. Oh, Councillor Wellington, let the record show. Councillor Jurisevic: I'm just wondering who heard the current speaker to the... Councillor Wilkie: No, you're quite right, Councillor Jurisevic. The Mayor will restrain himself. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I sit corrected. Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Councillor Pardon: Well done. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: And the response to just those two small 3D images, all of a sudden... Well done. ...what people were having a hard time conceiving of as a worthwhile investment, all of a sudden, even commentary on the ABC radio this morning, talking in superlatives about just those concepts. So it is something that we do want superlatives used, just like the boardwalk. And it is setting in place a piece of infrastructure that not only provides a service and a benefit,

02:03:00 but also says something to the world about the future. And I think that's the key to who we are. Yes. Councillor Wilkie: All of that. Councillor Glasgow: And more. Councillor Wilkie: And more. All of that. There is certainly a lot of enthusiasm out in the community for this project. And as the staff have explained, there will be more community engagement regarding this project, where concept designs, more fully formed concept designs will go out for feedback at pop-ups in Cooroy. I understand the Cooroy Library, the Cooroy Hall are two areas where that will take place. The reason why it has been taking some time is because it's not the sort of consultation where you can just go out and say, tell us what you want. These ideas have had to be tested and put through risk assessment. And a lot of analysis and rigor have been put around the concepts that are contained within these concept designs.

02:04:00 There is still capacity for feedback to shape the overall outcome. And that's important to note. The other thing that's important to note is that this playground, this nature-based playground, is being done first and foremostly for the parents, the people who probably access it most frequently, and that is the parents and families and children of the Noosa hinterland, who live immediately around Cooroy, Pomona, Cooran, Kin Kin, who may currently travel all the way down to Pirate Park or the Noosa River foreshore to access the Pirate Park or water-based play. And it will also be a facility that others can enjoy from across the Shire and perhaps from outside the Shire. But as other councillors have said, these sort of iconic playgrounds are nothing new. Other councils have them.

02:05:00 Developers are actually providing them now with housing estates. And they're sort of expected now in many communities. I look forward to the project progressing. And I look forward to being present, if possible, at some of the pop-ups to hear what the community has to say about it. And well done, Paul and your team. An enormous amount of work that you've put into this. Councillor Glassman, you wish to close? Councillor Glasgow: Yeah, just briefly. You know, it's all been said. This is a tremendous amount of work. And this is the reason why our motto is different by nature. You just said it's always going to be a playground, but this is going to be different than every other playground because it's going to be a Noosa playground. And I have got in my closing that it was a $4.8 million playground and we did get 60% grant funding. So there's really no reason not to continue with this like we are at the moment because it's a laid-out mosaic.

02:06:00 With the funding we got and with the staff that are doing the amount of work on it, it's going to be so, so good. And what the Mayor talked about with the boardwalk is just how paramount and how top of the level our success is in building these projects like this. So we are different by nature and I can't wait to play on it. Thank you. Put the motion. Those in favour? I'm against. Councillor Jurisevic: You're suggesting you're the only one young enough to play on it? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: That's the first shot. We're all on top of the climbing. Next item, Councillor Wilkie: Croy Hinterland Playground expressions of interest about getting on with the work. And again, this is Paul's report. Any questions for the staff, councillors regarding this? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I'm happy to move it. Councillor Wilkie: I'll second it. Seconded by Councillor Jurisevic. Councillor Stockwell, would you like to speak to it? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I won't say too much more, but I just ran the timelines in my head and the images of Noosa couldn't have led to the first design principle

02:07:00 because they were the 82-85 Council, so it must have led to something else. So it was a process. We were looking at the future of Noosa and I don't know where it led. But anyway, so all those, I think it is important to reiterate that it is consistent with long-held values about public infrastructure in Noosa, that it sets a high standard, that it reflects nature, doesn't dominate it, and that it is designed and built for residents, but in so doing, people want to come and visit us. Speaker 3: Awesome. Councillor Jurisevic: Joe. Yeah, I'm just glad to see that elements like experience of the road, park, road, boardwalk project, as the Mayor alluded to in a different way, lead us to not just looking at standard stick-in-the-mud type solutions or projects going forward,

02:08:00 but that we do look at award-winning projects that bring pride for the community and for this Council going forward with regard to the type of projects that we can deliver for the future. Councillor Wilkie: If I can just reinforce Councillor Jurisevic's comments. Mr Council does. It's only a small Council. It doesn't have a super large budget, but it does discipline itself to operate on financially responsible principles that allow us to get the best quality projects for the dollars available, including grant funding from other tiers of government, successful pitches done there, which are no small feat in themselves, and allow us to make these quality projects that stand the test of time, that can be enjoyed by the Noosa community, not just now, but well into the future. This is just one of those. Yeah, Councillor Frank. Councillor Pardon: Yeah, just to say that if we look at our record, Councillors, with regards to grant funding and the $2.8 million, whatever it is for this one,

02:09:00 and we can look across the Shire with regards to Rufus Street Digital Hub, et cetera, et cetera, I think we've received about $13 million in the last two years in grants across the Shire. So sometimes when we start these journeys on these bigger projects, it just shows sometimes what you can achieve when you step out there. And once again, I'd like to thank staff, grant writers, et cetera, for a great number of successes and also state and federal governments. Their money's always welcome with regards to these projects. And yeah, so I think sometimes we take an element of risk, calculated risk, but if you look at our record thus far, it's pretty good. Also, I think not to understate the complexity

02:10:00 of this particular job here, because of all these elements and design elements, and staff have done tremendous amount of work, but going forward, there is certain elements of risk with regards to the delivery of this playground. It's hard work when you've got so many elements interwoven into this playground. And I know Paul will have some headaches going forward. You're dealing with so many elements and you're dealing with trees, planting size of trees, trying to source stock, various timbers. So to get this right, it's a big gig. But I'd like to thank staff so far. But I'm sure we can get there, absolutely. But I'm not understating the complexity of this job. It's quite tricky. And I suppose the boardwalk was mentioned as an analysis or comparison.

02:11:00 I think, from memory, they lost two trees doing that whole boardwalk out there. And that's testimony to staff once again. What you can do. But it's a tricky gig. Anyway, thank you. Mayor Wellington: Yeah, on the back of Councillor Pardon's comments, I'd like to use the word imagination. Because quite often we throw these concepts out into the community and say we're building a playground or we're building a boardwalk or we're building a digital hub. And in the community's mind, their only reference is, you know, the boardwalks they've been on previously or the playgrounds they've played on previously. It was this elected body that pushed staff to go many extra yards, not just one extra yard in the design of this playground. We said, we made it very clear as elected members that we wanted this to be exceptional. And in doing so, we run the risk of not being able

02:12:00 to take the residents on the journey because we have a clear intention, which is that this has to be exceptional. But when you say playground, you end up with the sort of ridiculous argument that I ended up on ABC Radio on trying to explain that this isn't just an ordinary playground like every other playground, as a caller had suggested. And the same issue occurred with the boardwalk. Once people saw it, they realised, oh, it's not just an ordinary boardwalk. This is something, you know, this is a piece of highly original, superbly crafted public infrastructure. And I trust that that's exactly the reaction we're going to get when this project is concluded and the ribbon is cut, that people will be able to understand why it is that we put in the effort, why it is that we drove the staff to go beyond their comfort zone and create something quite fabulous.

02:13:00 Councillor Wilkie: Councillor Stockwell, you should close. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I was just thinking... No, the Mayor wouldn't make it. I think it is important to reflect on the consultation. I think it's important to know that we got here after not only the consultation on the playground, but from the very moment that the sawmill closed down. There's been extensive involvement over many years leading to this point, which is probably, you know, will be the pinnacle of the... of the community aspect of that former sawmill site. I think it's important... And why I was thinking is that the structure and the pinnacle I got to, and I remember that Cooroy stands for Mountain Possum, and I thought, well, maybe we can build that in. Then I thought, no, maybe that climbing structure could have an artistic semblance of Mount Cooroy

02:14:00 with its quite steep, straight faces, and that we actually reflect the landscape in it. And I was trying to think up what would be another word for it other than playground, and I didn't get there before you finished. So I think it is... I'll filibuster longer next time. It is about creating adventures for the very young through the very old, and it's creating adventure within an urban space so that people with all abilities can experience it in the ways they best are suited to. Councillor Wilkie: The motion goes in favour. Against? Motions carried. Thank you, Mr Brown. Next up, we have item 10, which is a development application for building works in detached house seaward of the coastal building line at 54 Seaview Terrace in Sunshine Beach. Welcome back, Kim. Hello. Speaker 2: Just a question. Councillor Wilkie: We had a similar application to this

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02:15:00 appear before us as an MCU, I believe. Speaker 2: That's right. Councillor Wilkie: And now it's before us again as a development permit for building work. Can you just explain what's going on there, please? What's the difference? Speaker 2: Okay. There is no difference in terms of the house. It's the same house that was originally applied for as a material change of use application. But what has happened is since Council decided the material change of use application, the applicant appealed the decision, launched an appeal, and shortly thereafter, wrote to Council saying, we believe this is not a material change of use because there's an existing house on the site and we're simply putting another house. There's no change of use occurring. So officers, along with Council's solicitor, reviewed that matter and we found that there wasn't a material change of use occurring. It's going from a house to a house. And also the new house, while it was a little bit larger than the existing house,

02:16:00 wasn't materially changing in scale and intensity. So what's occurred is the wrong type of application was lodged with Council. Instead of material change of use, it should have been a building works application. So the applicant has now lodged a building works application. But it's essentially for the same house. Same proposals, same plans. Nothing's changed from what we saw last time. Councillor Wilkie: So it's been refused on exactly the same grounds. Speaker 2: That's right. Every process of applications. Yeah. The grounds are slightly modified because it's assessed against the building works code rather than the detached house code. But there's the same provisions in both codes. So it's the same grounds, really, for refusal. Jack? Councillor Jurisevic: Has there been any additional cost incurred by the applicant with regard to what they originally lodged, with regard to what they've lodged now? I mean, who's...

02:17:00 Given that there wasn't a material change of use, should that have been picked up at the time? Speaker 2: I can't answer whether, you know, cost for the applicant. That's really for them to comment. The applicant lodged the application. They lodged the material change of use. So it was their application. And we assess it based on what they present, not... There was no pre-lodgement. I do suggest, though, that's something we could have picked up in terms of looking and comparing. But we just continued to assess what they had lodged. Speaker 7: I guess what I was... Both the applicant and the council probably should have picked it up. Councillor Jurisevic: Yeah. Yeah, I guess what I'm alluding to as a result of that, I mean, an MCU is quite a lengthy... Can be quite a costly process. A building application is a different process. Have they... In the lodging too, have they been... Have they had to make two payments to council for two separate applications? Speaker 2: It is the same process under... The planning legislation in terms of material change of use or building works application,

02:18:00 which is for different development permits. Yes, they have paid twice. They've paid the fee for the material change of use. And now they've paid the fee for the building works application. Councillor Wilkie: Okay. All right. I'll move it. No, Councillor Wellington. Second. Second, Councillor Pardon. Councillor Warren. Mayor Wellington: Look, I think we've had this debate previously, and we'll be saying the same thing this round, and we'll probably say them again on Thursday, but fundamentally, from my point of view, we cannot falter at these early tests of our resolve to deal with the potential impacts of climate change. This isn't about sea level rise. This is about increased risks from increasingly intense weather events. And it is clear from the Bureau of Meteorology, looking at their statistics and graphs, they clearly show extreme weather events like heat waves, et cetera, are increasing in frequency and intensity.

02:19:00 I remind councillors that hot surface sea temperatures are known to trigger cyclones, and the hotter the surface temperature, the more intense the cyclone, as just one example of what we may be facing down the track. And cyclones obviously impact directly on our coastline. Look, we haven't recently spent over half a million dollars on a coastal hazard adaptation plan, including careful modelling, which has been, if you like, peer reviewed, but we've been very fortunate by the state government to then go and throw it all away at this stage. And if we did ignore that half a million dollars' worth of work, we would not only be remiss, but we would be setting a very dangerous precedent in trying to back up that modelling into the future and to support the efforts of our expert staff. We therefore have a duty to take this modelling into consideration. There are a number of issues with this development proposal. In terms of the original state's coastal hazard line, as well as our more current coastal

02:20:00 hazard mapping. And we've been advised by the LGAQ, we've been advised by King & Company that we do have a legal duty to take into account the most recent, the most current information we can when considering storm surge and climate change impacts. So if we want to do this, we need to do it. If we were to not refuse, if we were to accept this application, arguably we would have failed. And not just in our legal duty, but also in our moral duty, we would have failed our community. Such decisions of this are never going to be easier. And I don't think they're going to get easier over the coming years. I accept that, unfortunately, some property owners are going to be affected by the modelling that we are carrying out, which is the best practice at the moment. And that is indeed a shame. But I do point out that we have known about climate change since the 1980s, that it is

02:21:00 very difficult, well nigh impossible for properties to receive insurance against storm surge tide, because the insurers are aware of future issues with regard to storm surge and climate change, etc. So it's not like there weren't plenty of warning signs. It is unfortunate. I accept that some of the property owners probably are deniers of the impact of climate change. But we can't afford to do that because the weight of expert opinion is so clear. And we do have both a legal and a moral duty to take that information on board. Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: And the councillors wish to speak to the motion? Councillor Stockwell? Yeah. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Only briefly. That's fine. We have prosecuted this argument before. Nothing has changed since the last time we prosecuted. The Mayor has clearly outlined our responsibilities in regard to it.

02:22:00 It is, one, he mentioned that we've known about climate change since the 80s, yet the science has been around. I was told, I found out the other day, in 1938 the greenhouse gas was first put into the scientific literature. And we're talking about the Coastal Building Line. The Coastal Building Line has been around for a long time. It's something that was recommended in the 1970s. The fact that this site is at risk from coastal erosion is not new. What is new, it's changed since the house was built there, is the state planning policy around what council should and shouldn't do in the coastal area. And what we no longer do is compare the setback to what the neighbouring properties, what we do is a much more intelligent mechanism for reducing future liabilities to both the

02:23:00 landholders, Life and Lim, and the council, is by taking every opportunity to try and gain appropriate setbacks to buildings that are under threat of coastal erosion. Councillor Wilkie: Any other councillors wish to speak for the motion? Opposed? No. Let's put the motion in motion. All those in favour? All right. Item 11, Budget Review 1, the 2019-20 financial year. Welcome, Trent. Welcome, Michael. Have any questions for Trent regarding the budget review? This is an opportunity for Council to amend their budget as emergent costs become apparent and to keep us up to

02:24:00 speed with carryovers from previous financial years. Anything else that BR budget reviews Speaker 4: are useful for, Trent? The primary one is to ensure any carryover from unspent projects, both operational and capital. And in line with the Local Government Act, we need to adopt a revised budget for those changes. Joe? Of the 39 projects incomplete, as of Councillor Jurisevic: 30 June, are there any projects that haven't been commenced at all? Yes. Of those 39 projects, Speaker 4: six hadn't started, seven were ahead of schedule, and the remainder were in progress at the Councillor Jurisevic: time. Is there any reason for the six that hadn't started at all, for not having progressed Speaker 4: at all through the year? A range of different issues. For example, it included replacement

02:25:00 of the beach showers on Claudebatten Drive, which was a timing issue in terms of securing design and then the tender. Replacement of some gross pollutant traps for stormwater. Again, they are in order, haven't arrived yet. There was a late emergent item for a memorial bench for George Pearce, which is still underway. And the other major issue Councillor Jurisevic: that we need to know when that's at, to talk about it next week, yeah. Was in relation Speaker 4: to the Prision Beach Surf Life Saving Club roof replacement, which will progress in Councillor Jurisevic: the coming months. So all of those projects should commence shortly? Correct. Councillor Wilkie: Now some of those, they were budgeted in the last years. Correct, councillor. And they're just carried forward this year, so the money's there. Great, yep, thank you. Councillor, any further questions for staff about the budget review? No, I'll move it.

02:26:00 Move Councillor Partnett, seconded by Councillor Jurisevic. Councillor Partnett, would you speak? Councillor Pardon: I need to thank staff for their work. Obviously, you know, trying to square the books at the end of the year, it's a big job. And as was mentioned, really if you look at the targets and the size of the workload that was undertaken, massive or not, and I look forward to the CEO's report, sort of, with regards to the year in review, I guess. It'll be amazing the amount of work that staff have covered. As I've always said, it's all right for us, we get reports, tick off here, go get them, go do. But it's been massive, but we'll see. I'd just like to thank the staff. Good job.

02:27:00 Councillor Wilkie: A question on page 53 in the Budget Statements. Under current liabilities, borrowings, there's quite a significant drop from 2019, the borrowings dropped from $3.6 million down to $2.5 million. That's got something to do with paying off the $10 million debt. Correct, councillor. Speaker 4: Yeah. So, the $2.5 million is as at what we forecast as at 30 June 2020 will be the mix of what is our current debt, i.e. what we were planning to pay off in the next 12 months, versus our non-current, which is due over the next 5, 10, 20 years. So, at the end of this year, next year we'll be planning to pay off $2.5 million in debt. Now, the reason for the large drop is that last financial year, at 30 June, we did own up some $10 million in debt. So, as a result, our annual payments are much slower. Councillor Wilkie: About $1.1 million in debt as well.

02:28:00 Speaker 4: Correct. Councillor Wilkie: That's principal and interest rates. Speaker 4: Correct. So, our annual payments for loan repayments don't change. It's that mix of principal and interest. But because we owe less money, we're paying it off quicker. Councillor Wilkie: So, taking it in isolation, that's the equivalent of 2% rates? Yeah. So, that's the equivalent of 2% rates. 2%? 2.4% in the rates? Roughly, yes. Yeah. Thank you. Savings? Yeah. Thank you. Joe? Councillor Jurisevic: Yeah, look, I think it's an outstanding result, again, for Council. Only 6 projects out of 124 that hadn't been commenced, but that will be undertaken, you know, underway shortly. Meeting our asset sustainability ratio, greater than 90%, all being achieved. And I'd like to join Councillor Parton in thanking staff for their efforts and their ongoing commitment to delivering for our community with great projects going forward.

02:29:00 Councillor Pardon: Councillor Parton, Mr Close? Only in the fact that if you look at the size, I guess, of our team, I firmly believe in numbers. We punch above our weight here. We are lean and tough. But the lean and tough leads to the prudence of the Council and gives us opportunity to actually pay off that $10 million by being lean and tough. But there's also tribute to the staff across the board. In numbers, I believe we punch above our weight, if you look at the big picture, comparing to some of the other local governments and resources that they have. Having said that going forward. We, as has already happened this morning, we put on another resource for our traffic and transport. And it's tough out there, especially on the engineering side, to get staff, keep staff, to actually do all these projects. And once again, here we go again going forward

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02:30:00 with a $30 odd million cap of works. That's one example. And there's other examples in IT and some of the stuff that's, you know, rolling out. It's massive for a small Council, but we continue to tick the boxes and we continue to get the job done. And it's great credit to the staff. Councillor Wilkie: Thank you. Thanks. I'll put the motion those in favour. Against, the motion is carried. We move on to item 12, which is the financial performance report from Trent as well. Councillor's questions for staff. This is for July. Councillor Jurisevic: Early into the year and things are, it's often difficult to know how things are tracking

02:31:00 completely. So, no, start and finish. So, things are generally on track. Councillor Wilkie: Moved, Councillor Glasgow. Second. Seconded, Councillor Pardon. Speaker 7: I have a question for Councillor Jurisevic. Go on. Go on. Go on. The staff training budget is above budget. Councillor Jurisevic: I'll have a question for the CEO in return. Was that the first time in five years that we've achieved that result? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Point of order. Point of order. Councillor Jurisevic didn't answer the question. Councillor Jurisevic: Sorry, Joe. It's all right. Just return, just return volley. Speaker 6: Just one comment. I think there's been a few changes to the report. We're always looking to make sure we try to provide information that's useful for councils and the community in terms of

02:32:00 our financial performance and our sustainability. There's legislative changes that may be proposed in the next 12 to two years from the department regarding sustainability indicators possibly changing or even moving forward. We've had a couple of conversations with the department and with QDC and also within the industry. So we've actually, you'll note there on page 63 of the agenda, we're now including a few more different ratios just to help provide some more context around the numbers and provide some high level indicators of how we're performing, which aligns with our policy as well, our financial sustainability policy. Which we've adopted. So that, we're looking to continually improve our reporting and that's just, so happy to take feedback if councils want to maybe consume that for the next meeting and have a think

02:33:00 about what, whether that's providing value or we need to include other things or modify things. Speaker 7: There's probably two parts to Michael's question. One is what sort of information, what ratios we're covering and the second is how we're displaying them. Yeah. Speaker 6: So a good example is now we're including, whilst we're including our normal sustainability indicator ratios around operating surplus, asset sustainability, net financial liabilities, we're also providing things like cash cover. So I think Trent's mentioned that one. Do we have enough cash in the next few months to keep operating? If we don't, we're in trouble. Looking at our rate arrears, obviously the more money you have wrapped up in rate arrears, receivables, the less cash you have in the bank to operate. So just providing those types of indicators. Councillor Wilkie: So for example, on the cash expense cover, the target is greater than three months. You've got written down there, the result is nine months. So that means without the influx of additional rates, fees and charges, this council could

02:34:00 still continue to operate for nine months. Is that correct? Correct. That's correct. Speaker 6: Yeah. And obviously you'll see as we work through each six month cycle, those rates are going to change because we receive our cash upfront. We're quite lucky being a business that you get paid in advance to perform your services. So over the next four or five months, going into our next rate run in January, you'll see that that cash cover figure will drop as we spend more. Councillor Wilkie: So given that it would be such an unusual situation where council would no longer continue to receive rates, fees and charges, do you think that's a useful indicator? Speaker 6: Oh look, I think you'll probably get more value through that indicator over the next, as I said, moving more towards the end of a rating cycle. So November, December, you might then say, okay, well, okay, how is our cash covered sitting against the benchmark?

02:35:00 Are we above or below? And if we're above by too much, you might ask, well, why have we got so much cash? Should we be looking at possibly some more debt repayments? Or if we're a bit under, you say, look, three months, guys, we're a bit, cutting a bit close here. What's going on? Councillor Wilkie: So for example, the $10 million we paid off, you've got nine months now is what the council will continue to cover its expenses for without any additional income coming in. If we still have that additional $10 million in the bank, what would that, how would that figure? Speaker 6: You'll find we'll be higher. I meant $10 million higher. That's correct. That's correct. I meant three months, three months, potentially, but we'd have to, we'd have to keep up like Speaker 7: that. Nine months? It's hard to give a guess on that. It's not clear. It'll be significant. Councillor Wilkie: We've reduced our free cash from 20 to 10, so a doubling of that would be appropriate. Speaker 4: Councillor, if you look at the, if you look at the peak. I was going to say. You're talking 13 months as it was at the back end of the last rate cycle.

02:36:00 And our annual expenditure budget on that. We're talking a couple of months' worth, probably no more than two months' worth. Speaker 7: The reason why this one's important, and I'm aware of councils out west where it's one month, and there was one council at the time with amalgamations back in 2008 that was zero. They couldn't do their payroll or run their creditors, so cash is king still, so you've got to make sure you've got enough money in there to do what you need to do, and you always follow that trail. Councillor Jurisevic: Joe? Look, I want to thank the staff for adding this in. I think it's particularly pertinent, given that we've just made that $10 million early loan repayment, I'm trying to phrase it in the form of a question rather than a comment. I'm assuming that what this will do for the future is enable us to look at our cash availability

02:37:00 for another opportunity. To do this in the future, and when it would be pertinent to turn around and make the opportunity for another early loan repayment would be feasible. Speaker 6: Like I said, you'll see, as we said, that the cash has come out of basically the account to pay the debt on, so that July sort of, you can see that July bar there, sort of around the nine months. We'll see that trending downwards below the six-month max. But we're sort of suggesting that it's how much realistically you're not really being efficient if you got above that. So we'll see that trending down, which is where QDC said we probably need to sit between that three and six months. And that's where we want to obviously, and Joe, as you said, do we get additional opportunities? Do we find other revenue streams that come through the year that then give us some extra cash that we could maybe then reduce debt further whilst not compromising our short-term

02:38:00 cash needs? Councillor Jurisevic: I think that's great to look at. Councillor Pardon: So the question, how much debt have we still got out there at that high rate? Can you tell me that? Speaker 4: At the 6.3% of the old debt, fixed, and I believe approximately $12 or $13 million, I'd have to take it on notice, but we had over $20 million worth at the time we did the assessment for the $10 million, and then obviously once we took the $10 million off, left us with about $10 to $12, depending on the next, for example, the next payment is due to QTC next

02:39:00 month, so once we do another payment, it may be down just over the $10 million mark. Yeah, okay. Councillor Jurisevic: Just going to follow up from there, what's our next worst loan interest rate after the 6%? What do we drop down to if and when we clear that then? Speaker 7: I've seen this, but I just can't remember it. Four. Four. Councillor Wilkie: Four. Councillor Jurisevic: Maximum four. So significant change from that 6%, so getting rid of that would be a huge, huge one. Councillor Wilkie: Question on the investment return indicator. We've got here that we've proven to keep a margin of 0.25%, we're actually doing 2.1%. Is that because something to do with the arrangement local governments have with QTC? Speaker 4: Through the Chair. It's a combination. It's a combination. So, as you're aware, the market is steadily declining with interest rates. When we have the cash coming from the rates bi-annually, we reinvest that.

02:40:00 So, at the time that we reinvested last in January, interest rates were quite good. Some of the institutions gave us quite a good return, up to 2.8%. At the moment, most commercial banks are offering well under 2%. But, you know, we've got a lot of interest rates. So, saying that, as you mentioned, QTC, we have the opportunity to invest with QTC under our surplus cash investment policy as well. QTC currently offering a much more competitive rate than what commercial banks are at present. So, what you'll see over the next month or two as that cash comes in from the rates, we're currently dropping that into QTC because we're getting a return that's higher. So, as long as QTC are offering a higher rate because they, they may need the cash for reinvestment purposes, more than a commercial bank, then we obviously benefit from getting a better return by doing that. Speaker 7: It's going to undersell itself a bit. It's also smart enough when the rates go up in January to lock in for longer than that.

02:41:00 Yep. So, those rates are coming down just for doing that higher rate. Councillor Jurisevic: It's the only reason that staff training being 4K above the year-to-date budget, so the CEO could turn around and poke fun at me, or? It's purely a timing issue, which is the same answer we had the other day. Nice to see you, Mr CEO. Nice to see that we're actually getting, getting there. We're ahead of the, ahead of the curve. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I was going to move an amendment under the, the average required rate. Explain the average then, Chair. Councillor Wilkie: I can ask him now. Right, councillor, was? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I, I'd like to talk to the motion. Councillor Wilkie: Oh, have you? He wants to talk, yes, of course. He'll close on it. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Okay, so I'd just like to say in terms of the questions about the, the new graphs within the report, I think they're excellent. I'm, I'm definitely a, a big picture graph man. My eyes glaze over with tables unless I'm not looking for a particular project, but as far as providing us with the information we need to ensure that the

02:42:00 organisation as a whole is on track and in good health financially, I think the additional information is excellent. It's really good. Really well done. Councillor Jurisevic: I too would like to commend staff on their, their dashboard application here with regard to the information provided not only helps councillors, but I think it will help the community to understand the financial position of council going forward and look at opportunities for without providing too much information of concise information that leads us or helps us to continue to understand our financial position better. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah, look, I, I too, look, the mores are better. I like the simple way they're laid out. Yes, it's good to see it graphically as well as numerically. And I, I bought it. It's entirely in keeping with staff's long held practice of always providing

02:43:00 more information in a transparent way. And this is just another demonstration. And that's that. Thank you. It is. It is useful. Councillor Glasgow: Yeah, just briefly to say the same thing. You know, it's always good to see our asset sustainability ratio in the positive and only going to get better as the year goes on as we start spending, you know, it reinforces just how smart you guys really are. We only had a conversation on Friday and you know, they're juggling debt. We're juggling future projects. And you've got this always around this 30 million every year divide off with projects. And then you've still got to have the initiative to go interest rates are low and lock it in and then talk about where we're going to be in a year with China and all this other stuff and what to do with juggling portfolios. And it's, it's inspiring to hear that. So I just want to thank you and look forward to another great year of spending and spending and spending.

02:44:00 Right. Thank you councillor. Councillor Wilkie: All in favour? All in favour? All in favour? All in favour? All in favour? Any against? The motion is carried? Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Trenny. I'm just wondering. I've got new clothes, I don't get pesos with which to take me. I'm just wondering if council will stop Adam, or will council take me, as he steps Councillor Jurisevic: forward and you get 500 рез dilated? Councillor Wilkie: I'm just wondering if council will stop Adam, or will council take me, as he steps Councilor this is the best I can do at this reference.

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