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00:00:00 Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Good morning and welcome everyone. I'll open the Planning and Environment Committee meeting for the month of July in the year 2020 and pay our respects for the traditional owners of this country, past, present and emerging. We have four items on the agenda and we have a range of staff and I do ask the staff, when your item is there, if you could come up to the front so we can see you and talk to you on the camera and particularly the case for the Acting Director of Planning and Sustainability and Environment, Mr Alan Hazel. I have a whole lot of complicated planning questions to ask you. So we move to item one. So item one is a report on representation on Climate Emergency Australia Strategic Advisory Group.
00:01:00 Speaker 3: We're just waiting for Rebecca's report. I think she's dialling in but she's not here yet for some reason. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Do we wish to hold that item over? Speaker 3: Ah, it's up there. Ah, here she is. I'll let her in the room. Councillor Wegener: Brett is letting her into the room. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: So, good morning Rebecca. Can you hear us? Can you connect me? How's it going?
00:02:00 How's it going? Okay, so does anyone have any questions of staff they wish to inquire about on this item? Speaker 3: The councillors will need to nominate one of you to represent Queensland on the group, no matter which councillors are interested or how you want to address that. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Sure. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm happy to put the name forward if no one else is interested but I'm also happy if other people are keen to enter the nominations. I would like to, very much so. Councillor Wegener: Good. Okay. Councillor Finzel: I'm interested also. I'm just wondering how committed do we have to be to these meetings? How often are they happening? Speaker 3: Rebecca, do you know how much about the frequency of the meetings? How often they're going to occur or when they're going to occur? Speaker 4: Yeah, probably once a month or once every two months.
00:03:00 Just in the initial first year and then from there determining whether, you know, how the frequency might need to be changed. But it's fairly low commitment initially. Okay. Councillor Finzel: Thanks, Rebecca. And is there any particular background knowledge that you would prefer the person sitting on this position possesses? Speaker 4: No, I don't think so. It would be helpful to have a general understanding of the climate change issues as it affects local government. But otherwise, no. Thank you. Speaker 3: Rebecca, are those meetings, they'll be held online, I assume? Speaker 4: They'll be online. Yep. Okay. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Thank you. So we've got two or three people interested. I'm quite happy for anyone to be involved. Is there a mechanism? Oh, Amelia? Councillor Lorentson: I'm interested also. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: So I suggest we'd better send this one to the general committee. Yeah, I think all the councils will need to hash out who's involved.
00:04:00 Mayor Stewart: Yeah. Can I just ask a question about it? It just says under page four, there are no immediate or long-term financial implications on council to join the advisory group. But then on page seven, it says the CEA, Climate Emergency Australia, will be funded by founding funders, councils who seek the benefit in working together with other councils, acknowledge this needs resources to get started, can afford to contribute, and are willing to provide funding to receive mutual benefits that coordinating this work together brings rather than a direct return to themselves. So is there any financial... They seem to be sort of polar opposites, those two things. Is there any financial implications or contributions that this council need to make to this group? Speaker 4: Yeah. Mayor Stewart: I can answer that. Speaker 4: Thanks. In the initial formation of the group, there was a request that councils put forward funding towards the establishment of it and also for the appointment of a project officer that
00:05:00 could coordinate the committee. This council didn't put any funding towards that. But several others down in Victoria did, had the capacity to do that and were able to fund the project officer. And what about ongoing costs, Rebecca? It would only be at the council's discretion. But we haven't made any commitment. This council hasn't made any commitment towards funding of it. Okay. So ours would just be our in-kind support and our nomination of a Queensland representative. Okay. That would be our contribution. Thank you. Thanks. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Okay. So someone would like to move that it go to the general committee and we'll see if we can fine-tune who might be... Sure. Councillor Finzel: I'm happy to move that. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Moved by Councillor Finzel. Seconded by Councillor Wenger. All in favour?
00:06:00 Carried unanimously. Thank you. So we move on to item two, which is material change used for a minor change to the development and approval for commercial business type one, office commercial business type two, medical and ancillary dwelling unit and reconfiguration of the lot. Access easement at 36 and 40 Hofmann Drive, Noosaville. It all seems fairly straightforward. Is there anything you'd like to overview in terms of getting us to understand the change? Speaker 5: I think it's important just to understand the change. This is a very large building. The councillors were here when it was first approved. We're advised that it's three storeys, whereas the scheme actually seeks two storeys in part. So that is an important element to note about this building. It's a large one. At the time, officers and councillors agreed that it was the right approach for this site
00:07:00 to encourage the medical centre, but also the third floor was a reduced floor and also quite a good space. I think it's important just to understand the change in the design with the project. So this addition, they're seeking to cover the rear car park does add to a little bit more building bulk to the building, but being at the rear, officers are comfortable that it won't look out of place in the business centre. Mayor Stewart: I've got a question, Kerry. How do you reconcile allowing this to be three storeys where, say, as an example, the development at Peregian who want to put a roof terrace on, two storeys and a roof terrace aren't allowed? How do we reconcile those differences? Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, going forward, the new planning scheme seeks a mix of heights in the business centre to allow a little bit more development in the centre, recognising that it's our key business centre for the Shire. And it's also about whether it's out of character with the surrounding area.
00:08:00 So it's right adjacent to industrial development. Which is allowed to go to 10 metres high. So quite high already, with a concrete stack in behind. Parts of Noosa Civic are at 16 metres already. So it's not out of character with sort of the surrounding landscape. Whereas Peregian Village was all two storeys, eight metres. And it was quite consistent through Peregian, that height. You don't find anything higher generally in that area. So it's about keeping that height consistent. And keeping buildings consistent with the character of what's existing and what's planned for the area as well. Okay. Thank you. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Any questions? I just wonder whether it's a practical condition in that Council Stockwell should never need the medical linear accelerator? Does that work? Councillor Finzel: We can try.
00:09:00 Deputy Mayor Stockwell: For those who haven't read the report, it's a radiation treatment for cancer. It's a bunker. It's mainly below ground, so it doesn't pose any risk. For those around it. And hopefully it has the desired results for those inside it. Okay. Would someone like to move the staff recommendation? Move Councillor Wegener. And a seconder? Councillor Stewart. All in favour? Carried unanimously. We move on to item three. Thank you. Now, this item has been asked to be referred to the General Committee. But if there's questions of staff or issues that need to be addressed, please do so. We've got less than four of those. And now's the time to do it. Do we have questions? I'll start off with a, um, you may be not a pen to a dandy. Firstly, the project plan reads really well. The monitoring evaluation component is the best I've seen in a report come to Council
00:10:00 in the last five years, which is not bad. And my only suggestion is that we need to make sure that, in the future, we have a way that it's not used in your monitoring evaluation plan. That is, your column, which is entitled measurable outcomes, is 95% measurable outputs. Whereas outcomes in your monitoring evaluation plan are correctly defined. Um, you, and I suppose that, to me, is, um, a key to monitoring evaluation. We're not just going to measure what we've done. We want to measure whether the outcomes of doing it have been achieved. And I suppose that, to me, is a key to monitoring evaluation. And, you know, the diagram, I think it's figure five, which is a very useful diagram. And then the impact of those outcomes on the broader environment. So that's, my only suggestion is, have a look at the title of the column that says measurable outcomes. Because I think if you look at your, um, at your figure five for monitoring evaluation,
00:11:00 then they're not actually outcomes, they're outputs. Speaker 1: Thank you, Council. I'll take on those. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Other questions? Is there anything that people would like to know more about before Monday? Speaker 3: Is there, yeah, probably the question, is there any more information, like, before Monday from staff? Councillor Wegener: And, um, um, the names for the technical advisory group, the New South Shire Council, um, environmental services manager, I just assume that that's Craig Doolin? It is. Yeah, Craig, yeah. And then from the Nature Conservancy, the project manager is Craig Bohm? Craig. Correct. Yeah, Craig. Yeah, there you are. That's okay. And then for the Nature Conservancy, the other names, I would just like to know the names of the people, um, there for that, the, um, operations manager, monitoring manager, uh, from the Nature Conservancy. And maybe they're not set yet, but I always like to put names to positions. Speaker 1: Thank you. They are set. We tend to just refer the titles in place so that people change within the organization
00:12:00 and we don't need to read them, redo the documentation. But we have Chris Gillies, he's the overall manager. Um, he won't be at the TAG, but he does oversee in the background along with Kim Rawlings from Council. We have, um, Simon Branigan, who's on the TAG, who's my direct line manager. And he's, um, the experienced operational side of the organization. And then we have our monitoring and evaluation manager. Another Simon, which is nice and easy, Simon Reams as well. Council, would you like me to have them noted into the plan or? Councillor Wegener: I would, I would love that. Yeah, please. Yeah. Mayor Stewart: Um, I, I have a question. I, I've been given a huge amount. Thank you very much, Craig. You've sent me a huge amount of information. I really appreciate it. And it's for me to read through this weekend. Whereabouts would I go to find the exact, um, assessment of prawn and fish stock in the river now, currently? What, what, what, what, um, piece of information, or all, out of all those documents that I've
00:13:00 been given, where, where specifically would that be found? Speaker 2: There's a couple of, well, they're found in a couple of different places. Yeah. Um, with regards to the fish stocks, um, the fishing, commercial fishing report that Council had undertaken last year. We'll have the most up-to-date commercial fisheries catch for the last five years. That was the fishing futures paper. Okay. Um, that quite happily tacks on exactly where the Ruth Thurston report finished. She has historical data going back to the 1950s prior to that on commercial fishing catch. Speaker 1: Yep. Speaker 2: Um, so that'll bring you essentially up-to-date with your fishing data. Um. Yeah. The prawn data, historically, is also included within that Ruth, Ruth Thurston report, um, and there's more detailed prawn data also as part of the University of Sunshine co-study final report, um, as well. Mayor Stewart: So the fishing futures paper, and the Thurston report, and the USC report are the three go-tos? Speaker 2: That, that would be the key elements, yes. Mayor Stewart: Okay. Thank you, Craig. Councillor Finzel: And Craig, question, does that include, uh, there was mention that there wasn't any sufficient
00:14:00 numbers of commercial fishing boats to obtain some information? Mm-hmm. Can you just clarify what that was? Speaker 2: Um, with regards to the general reporting, you can pull off the website. If there's fewer than five boats fishing a particular area, they don't put all the data on the website, because it's not considered private under privacy conditions, because it's too easy to identify individual fishers. The fishing futures report has that data, so it has all the data from the, uh, fishing boats collated, obviously, so you can't identify individual fishermen's catch, but that has all the data, um, up to 2018, I think is the most recent data there. Mayor Stewart: And in regard to that information, Craig, which I'll, I'll go back and I'll look at that. Thank you for showing me that, because, uh, there's a lot of stuff to, there's a lot to read through. First, whereabouts is it in the measurable, the measurables or the measurable outcomes that where, if you've given, we've got the baseline, that we're seeing that actually
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00:15:00 improve? Where are the measurable outcomes? What specific outcomes are they, um, that we can see that, that, that, that baseline is improving? Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: Um, there's a couple of ways, um, within the actual monitoring report and the goal is to... Mayor Stewart: In the contract, specifically. Sorry? In the contract, specifically. In the contract. Which measurable outcomes state that those, you know, that, I don't have the contract on me, I'm just... Speaker 2: Well, no, I, I do. Um, the details are in the project management plan, which has been provided as part of this meeting. Yeah. The contract itself doesn't have the baselines or details of the monitoring that'll be undertaken, um, as part of the project, that's included in the project management plan, which is included here. So, the contract basically refers to the project management plan to provide those details. And if you have a look at the project management plan, some of the, um, goals three and four, um, start to outline how there'll be measurements within the demonstrate the creation of habitat to benefit fish and the demonstrate the construction of the reef enhances marine biodiversity.
00:16:00 So, there's two areas of monitoring that'll be undertaken. As part of the project before and after, and that also, um, includes some further work being undertaken by council at the moment, as part of the environment strategy to look at recreation of fish catch, which will look at surveys on, uh, fishes coming in that'll start prior to the implementation of the first reef. Um, that's, it's a little bit separate to this project, but obviously relates with it quite closely. Um, so it's a separate piece of work that'll provide baseline, not specifically on the oyster reefs, cause it'll look at a whole range of projects and initiatives we've got going on in the river. Whereas the staff on the implementation plan is very much focused around where the reefs are being placed. Mayor Stewart: I understand the monitoring component. I guess my question is if we're starting at a baseline and I've got no idea about sulfites or nitrogen or oxygen in the waters, if we're starting at say five, how do we know that this, this project is, we're, we're getting to 10, how do we know that those deliverables
00:17:00 we're achieving? Not just monitoring, how do we actually, okay, we measured them today and in three months they're here and in six months they're here and in 12 months they're here, how, how, whereabouts in the contractor is, is that? Speaker 2: Um, the, the areas I just identified within the project plan. That's monitoring though, isn't it? What is, well, that would be the purpose of the monitoring to identify the situation, the ecological situation prior to the installation of the reefs during and post the installation of the reefs at those locations. Mayor Stewart: So the KPIs are to do with monitoring. What about the outcomes or the evaluation of that? Is that all to do with the KPIs as well? Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know. I'm totally clear on your question. Sorry. Sorry, Mayor. Mayor Stewart: Well, there's a lot of monitor, like just from where I'm seeing there's a lot of measurables and, and monitoring. I just, where's the specifics? That's all I'm asking. Speaker 2: I, I don't have the, Craig may be able to offer a little bit more information but, um, the project plan identifies what will be monitored before and after the project. Um, the exact methodology, I can't answer to that at this stage.
00:18:00 Deputy Mayor Stockwell: So is that something that we could get a little bit more, uh, understanding of by Monday? Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly. Certainly. Thank you. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Um, I did have one other and that was, um, in, and this is something you don't think about on Monday too, it's page 14 and it's the objective for community engagement and it reads, strengthen community interest, support and participation in Noosa River restoration by establishing community volunteer programs that support oyster restoration. So it's focused on the participation. Um, I would have thought it might be important to include something around, uh, strengthen community understanding. There's nothing in there that talks about capacity building, that, uh, this project should build both an understanding of and not just be involved in but the need for. And maybe there's some tweaking in the words around there that we could have a look at to, and maybe it's captured somewhere else but that's where I saw, saw it, is just that part of this process is not just about getting involved but it's understanding why it's
00:19:00 needed and, you know, what might be, you know, capacity building or broadly, you know, like moments of community in terms of why this, this project is so important for, uh, ongoing river health and catching more fish in the future. Speaker 1: Thank you. Councillor, I appreciate that actually. I would be very happy to include more words along the broader context of community involvement and engagement. Um, certainly this is quite a, as I said in the paper, a surgical project. We have to put fairly small structures in amongst a raft of existing uses. And our work in, in some of the other states and in, in the US and now into Europe, these projects usually work over very large areas and we can have lots of people come and be involved. We don't have the space in Noosa to work at that sort of direct participatory scale. But we can involve people through associated projects, awareness projects, um, drawing murals, art projects, various things that celebrate the river, its health, our uses, our love of it, that we tie to the project and build that understanding and awareness, which I've
00:20:00 actually just had a very early morning phone look up with Flora to discuss options for doing that. Which I think is, is as important if not more important than people directly getting out there measuring oysters or, or shucking or washing things, which is quite hard labour and most people don't really want to do that anyway to be fair. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: You can cancel jobs. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but they are willing. But they are interested in other sort of connections to the project and, and what it's trying to achieve more broadly. So I'm very happy to broaden out that scope a little bit because we'll be doing it anyway, but I'd like to see it better captured. Thank you, Councillor. Yeah. Councillor Wegener: I wanted to say as well with the volunteers, you know, there's one, there's an opportunity for citizen science with the reefs, you know, as actually measurable outcomes further down with, you know, the, the fish catches and so forth. As with those little micro reefs that were already in there, the cameras said that two to three times more of the big game fish were around those reefs than before. Um, so that, I think that's an opportunity for citizen science as well as the cleaning
00:21:00 of the oysters. I mean, I, to be honest, I get, I was very excited about doing my civic duty and eating more oysters and then cleaning them, but, but then being a part of the process and I, I was envisioning, you know, at times where there'd be a group of people cleaning oysters and talking about, you know, the, the importance of this and the success that it's done and then the science of how the, these shells will be put together through the, the process of filtering the water, taking the dirt and sediments out of the water and creating that cement base that's underneath the oysters. So yeah, that, I thought that was exciting, but I think that, that could be expanded on as well. Speaker 1: Certainly. Councillor Finzel: Question. Um, can you just, for the people that don't know, uh, who will own the research data? Speaker 1: It'll go to the public commons, as far as I understand. Speaker 2: It does. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so there's no intellectual property attached to either party or all research data will be publicly available. Councillor Finzel: And who are the three parties involved in the project?
00:22:00 It's what, the MBRF? Speaker 2: No, there's two parties involved in this project, Noosa Council and the Nature Conservancy. Different groups have been involved in the earlier stages of scoping it, but there's only two people party, two organisations party to the current agreement, and that's Council and the Nature Conservancy. Councillor Finzel: Council and the Nature Conservancy. Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, in, in the lead up four or five years, MBRF, University of Sunshine Coast, University of Queensland, Noosa Parks, a whole range of organisations have been involved in getting it this far. Councillor Finzel: Okay. Thank you. When we talk about baseline data, um, there was discussion the other day at the briefing that we had talking about, uh, what are the baseline milestones and is there a plan to lead into a green infrastructure plan? How does that work? That was mentioned at the meeting. Speaker 2: Uh, there's not a plan at this stage as part of this, I mean, what we're doing is green infrastructure. Um, but at this stage there's no push for council as a whole to move into a broader green infrastructure plan.
00:23:00 I think at that meeting, that was a discussion at a, I think a South East Queensland level looking at a green infrastructure plan. Um, I, to be honest, I don't know a lot more about it other than what was discussed at that meeting, but it's certainly not, um, an area we're going with council at this stage, but it may be future direction. Um, if we have really successful installation at the first stage of the oyster reefs that we look at something, a more broader, more broader program. Councillor Finzel: Thank you. Um, I do have another question. In the measurable outcomes on page 31 according to this agenda item, um, there's evidence of Kabi Kabi involvement in the tag. Um, can you just explain that? Speaker 2: Ah, yeah. It was identified early on, uh, that Kabi Kabi should be involved in the technical advisory group. They'll have a lot to add. Um, so a position within the technical advisory group was reserved for Kabi Kabi. At this stage, the other technical advisory groups only met once and the Kabi Kabi
00:24:00 representative was unable to attend on that day. So they haven't attended yet. Okay. Speaker 1: Can I add to that? Um, the recent historic study of oyster reefs and oyster systems in south east Queensland led by Thurston with TNC, there was a lot of Kabi Kabi involvement in the compilation of the data for that report too, which was one of the baseline reports. Okay. They've been involved in the preliminary stages, but we do wish them, want to be actively involved, whatever their capacity is throughout the project. Okay. Councillor Finzel: So question, are you satisfied then that, um, that the milestones with their involvement has been met? Speaker 2: I can answer that. No, it hasn't to this point, but that's part of the second stage of payments, which is four to six months away. So, um, that'll be, that's one of the conditions that need to be met to meet the second milestone along with a range of others. And that's, that was at least four to six months away. So I would have expected us to have two to three more tag meetings at least where I would have expected Kabi Kabi representation.
00:25:00 Um, if we were deciding today whether or not that milestone would be met, I'd say no, it hasn't. But there's, they've certainly been engaged, they're involved, and we fully expect them to be involved in the project. Councillor Finzel: So just to clarify, milestones have to be met before money moves on to the next phase? Speaker 2: That's correct. So the first payment was made upon signing the agreement. Um, the second payment is made upon the completion, I think, of five further milestones. The presentation of this project plan accounts as one of those milestones. Uh, other two are, um, the amount of media reporting, the amount, uh, the involvement of Kabi Kabi, and also the delivery of, uh, state permits. So there's still a few steps to be made before that second payment's made. Mayor Stewart: So it would be fair to say that these are more tasks, wouldn't it, Craig, than milestones, would you suggest? I mean, I mean, a milestone to me is that we've achieved, you know, we can see improvement or we have measurable outcomes. Yeah. Before we get to that. But yeah, they're more tasks, these measurable outcomes.
00:26:00 Speaker 2: Well, I guess if you look at something like completed state permitting, that could be considered a task or a milestone, because either way, it's something that needs to be reached in order to progress, um, the project further. Um, I mean, obviously the, uh, the agreement is just that, it's an agreement between two parties. Um, so milestones are put in place, um, on what I guess we saw as particular risk areas that council had very key interest in having Kabi Kabi involvement in ensuring that the state permits were met. So we decided to delay those payments until we were certain that those criteria could be achieved. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: So, um, just back to the Kabi Kabi, it was interesting to see on the cultural plan that those councils interested in understanding a little bit more and don't want to read a lot. There's a, uh, hyperlink to the little video that the Heritage Coordinator has done looking at Kabi Kabi and the Oyster's Guernsey, which I read while I watched it last night, very good. Um, in terms of milestones and outcomes, I think that is, uh, a fairly standard practice
00:27:00 that when you contract someone to do a job that you call the completion of certain tasks to get your milestone for payment. That's just standard contracting procedure. It is the, it is not linked generally to the monitoring evaluation of the impact of the undertaking of those tasks, which as I said in this case, is fairly well, very well documented in a comprehensive monitoring evaluation plan. So. Speaker 3: Brian, just a quick question. Who's, who's the actual Kabi Kabi rep for Brian? Speaker 2: Um, I think it's Kerry. Kerry Jones. Yes. Kerry was. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Yep. And, um, he was, he was one of the video. Speaker 2: There was, yeah. So that, that request come through. And he hasn't worked in the Roots River in many years. Yeah. And, and I don't have the quote in front of me, but in the Thurston, uh, report, I don't know if it's from Kerry, very strong support from Kabi Kabi for Oyster restoration in this river. I saw it as a key cultural activity. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Well, we had our, our weekend camp up in the North Shore.
00:28:00 We certainly had one of the, uh, uh, would be, um, their pelvis, uh, and all the values they're interested in. Um, Councillor Drivick, you had it cleared? Councillor Jurisevic: I guess I'm following on. I'm seeing whether I'm on the same mindset with what the, uh, the Mayor's, uh, question the Mayor's raised. And that's, um, how do we measure success of this, uh, project going forward? And can it be done in America? You know, is there a, a number that we're trying to achieve of, of, of species increase or a, a number of, uh, you can't go out and count the number of fish in the river, clearly, that are there and, and at the, at the end of it. But, um, I would imagine that, um, there, there must be some measure more than anecdotal of an increase in species and or, or numbers of fish at the end of this project. Speaker 2: There's the, the, the project management plan identifies a couple of clear goals on that. And we'll come to the meeting on Monday with some more specific details around what that might look like because it's been done on a whole range of other projects all around the world. Um, so we'll just come a bit more prepared for that Monday meeting with a bit more detail on that.
00:29:00 Councillor Jurisevic: That's what I was heading to. I know that, that there are other projects around the world that, that we, we, we base this on. I mean, they've had measures of success that, uh, I'm wondering whether we can, you know, parallel to, uh, to, to the levels that, that, that they have achieved. Speaker 2: Well, we already have some examples with the University of Sunshine Coast work where they have very clear measures of success of increased fish numbers, um, around the experimental units they had in the river at the time. Councillor Jurisevic: I'm just asking, is that, is that along the lines of what you were sort of remaining towards? Yeah. Mayor Stewart: Yeah. I think we need, I think it would provide a lot of more comfort if there was a baseline that we started with. You can't tell a swimmer, I mean, Dr Gilley said the other day, we know we're improving, but you can't say to a swimmer, your times are getting better unless you've got a base time. So we can't know that this, this project, that things are getting better and this is working unless we've got a baseline. And that's what we need. Councillor Lorentson: And further to that, I think not only what constitutes success, but what constitutes failure. And in the latter, um, what's council's position?
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00:30:00 What happens if the project fails? Um, do we have any recourse as a council? Can we seek compensation? This is, uh, a project that's been heavily invested in. And I, and I think they're serious considerations. Mayor Stewart: Yeah. Is the material breach failure to meet the KPIs? I mean, these are the questions that we need sort of to know. Okay. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I would, I would recommend to councillors if you haven't had the opportunity, the monetary evaluation reporting plan 2022 answers a lot of these questions that I said, and I'll repeat it. It is the best monetary evaluation plan of any project that I've seen coming for this council in the last five years. Mayor Stewart: But it doesn't talk about the contractual terms, though, does it? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Councillor Stockwell? It talks about what you're talking about. That's what I say. The contractual terms are separate in the contract. The material breach? And the monetary evaluation plan is about assessing the, how it is moving towards both the objectives and the goals in a very scientific, methodical way, as you'd expect from an ecological restoration, uh, unit that is, uh, world-class.
00:31:00 Councillor Lorentson: Can I ask one further question? Um, Craig, um, you might be able to answer this. Um, as a council, have we looked at the ongoing cost of maintenance of the recourse? Um, and if we have, who's going to be funding that? Speaker 2: Um, no, we, there's been consideration to it. We don't know exactly what it's going to be. Um, the intent is that the oyster reefs, once, once they're implemented into the river, will require very little maintenance. Um, exactly what that looks like. We probably won't have a clear idea until we know exactly what, um, I guess the oyster reefs look like. Exactly what sort of structures are being used. So, this intent is not expected to be a major cost, because they won't be large physical structures. They're simply a change in the, I guess, the floor, um, of the river. Um, so we're not expecting any significant cost, but do we know exactly what they'll be? No, we don't. We won't know until we know exactly where the reefs are and what they're made of.
00:32:00 Councillor Lorentson: So, another one? Sorry, my last question is, um, I note somewhere in the papers that I read so many over the weekend, um, that there was a requirement, um, for the project manager to be a marine biologist and have extensive, um, coastal and management-style experience. And I Googled Craig, um, and under the Nature Conservancy, tick, extensive, commendable, reputable, extensive, extensive, extensive, extensive, extensive, extensive, extensive, experience. But I didn't see anywhere whether you were a marine biologist. Speaker 1: No, I'm not a marine biologist. I'm actually, um, a two-degree coastal manager, um, with experience in marine biology and ecology and fisheries management. And that's why TNC chose me, because of my multiple backgrounds relevant to marine ecosystem management. So, I understand the multiple players. Um, as a marine biologist, that would tick some of the boxes, but it's sort of under, perhaps undersells what's required for these jobs, which are very complicated.
00:33:00 Um, you need to do the marine biology and understand it, but also understand the ecology, as well as the stakeholders, as well as the fisheries management, as well as the legislative frameworks. And, um, when TNC was scoping for this position, trying to find somebody, they look at the best mix of skills, and they chose me, for whatever reason. Um, and, uh, yeah, and so, I mean, they could have chosen a pure marine biologist, but they may have come out of an institution where they did not have this broad experience, which is kind of, seemed to them to be more fitting than just having straight marine biology as the background. So, yeah. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: But you're saying your experience is more in integrated coastal management, and that's what this project brings in? Speaker 1: Well, that's what TNC decided was more relevant, and with Council's support, as far as I understand. That's for, um, you've got yourselves to decide, and not for me, as a mere humble servant of the people now. So, yeah. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Well, good. Thank you. Councillor Lorentson: One, sorry, Joe, one more question.
00:34:00 I'm going back to... I'll point the border. Oh, excuse me. I'm a, I'm a... Sorry. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Sorry. Excuse me. No, no, no. You called me a... Oh, sorry. Mayor Stewart: Sorry. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: That's all right. Mayor Stewart: Sorry. They both have haircuts. It's easier to get them. Councillor Lorentson: Just back to, um, the Gavi Gavis, and I sent you some questions yesterday, Craig. Um, again, I'm a little bit confused. So, I've sort of read that, um, a milestone was evidence of Gavi Gavi involvement. Yep. And to date, and, and thank you for your explanation, that it was for operational reasons, as I've understood, that, um, you went ahead with the maintain, and the Gavi Gavi just weren't able to turn up. That's correct. Um, I noticed under the membership, it said TBC, which is to be confirmed, and my understanding of it to be confirmed is that there is no certainty. Um, it's not known yet who that representative is going to be.
00:35:00 I also note in the reports that you mention, um, we are hopeful, um, of the Gavi Gavis being represented at the next meeting. There's a lot of uncertainty in those words. So, I'm thrown back at you. Can you provide some hard evidence that, um, there will be real representation on the tag as required under the milestone? Um, which then will allow us to discharge, um, you know, financially acquitting you guys of that milestone, and allow the next payment. I'm still not, I haven't got my head around the certainty of the Gavi Gavi involvement. Speaker 2: The, the, the correspondence between, uh, Kim Rawlins and I believe Brian Warner with the Gavi Gavi has been that they are very keen to be involved, and were just unable to make it on that day. Uh, and they've nominated a representative, I believe Kerry Jones. Um, yeah, I believe so. Um, I'll have to confirm with Kim Rawlins who doesn't return from leave till tomorrow. Uh, but, uh, I believe that's the case, and we're, we're expecting them to attend.
00:36:00 Uh, and also, to repeat the answer to Councillor Finzel's question, um, it is a milestone that doesn't need to have been met as of today, because we won't be making that payment for a period. But we have very strong indication from Kabi Kabi they want to be involved. They've been strong supporters of the project. They're very big, they're on record as being very, thinking oyster restoration in the river is very important, um, for the river generally, and also for their cultural interest in the river. So, um, we have a lot of faith they'll be there. But because it is a milestone, if in four to six months we're sitting here looking at those milestones for payment, and they haven't been involved, then that will be an issue. Uh, but everything I see at the moment suggests they're very keen to be involved. Councillor Lorentson: Okay. So, let me understand if I've read correctly. Um, I think under the terms of reference, um, under the roles and responsibilities of technical advisory group members, that they are required to attend all meetings, um, in person, or electronically, or in proxy, something worthy to, to that effect. So, um, we're saying there is an exemption being with the Kabi Kabi representatives?
00:37:00 Deputy Mayor Stockwell: No, I, I think that's probably... Um, I, I understand. Um, I believe if council has understood the situation, that they wouldn't be asking these questions. So, I'm going to say can we hold this off for Monday? Sure. And, um, we'll go from there. Speaker 3: Okay. That sounds a little bit more circumstantial. Okay. Councillor Wegener: Just, well, one last question. The River Plan, we're going to be looking at the River Plan coming up real soon. Um, could you just give a rough thumbnail in, uh, overview of how the Oyster Project here fits in with the River Plan, and the language in the River Plan that's going to reflect this, the Oyster Project? Speaker 2: Um, perhaps I could take that one on notice for Monday, Tom. I hadn't really cons... put, uh, put my head in that direction. Look, certainly the, the River Plan as it is, um, certainly sees the oyster reef reconstruction as, um, a key element, um, in improving, basically, I guess, natural infrastructure in the river moving forward. Um, there are specific objectives in the plan, but I can't recall the wording of them off
00:38:00 the top of my head, um, which the oyster reef fits quite neatly into. So, um, if I could perhaps ask me to get on Monday, I'll come with a more detailed answer for you, if that's okay. Mayor Stewart: Oh, I've got one last question. It's a pretty easy one. I think it's 13A, measurable outcomes, and it's sort of a contract on me. Um, where is, is it obtained state licenses? It is, yes. Yeah. Where are we with that? Speaker 2: Um, only in the early stages. Um, one of the purposes of the technical advisory group was to make it a lot easier. Um, when we did the project with the University of Sunshine Coast, it was challenging, uh, but at the same time, there were a lot of learnings to that. It took us quite a few months to organise all those state authorities, particularly with the fish habitat areas. Um, I'll go to Craig to talk the details on how he's working with state agencies at the moment. Speaker 1: Um, yes, I'm working with the state agencies, with the managers who actually provide advice on the conditions on the permits at the moment, to give advice on how best to proceed. Um, they're at a cutting edge space that at a state level, they're trying to revise the state policy on restoration because they don't have a policy.
00:39:00 Um, yet they're being challenged on a number of fronts, not just here in Noosa, about how to proceed at a state government level with restoration and integrate it under various pieces of legislation that it impacts. So we're, um, in that space as well. So the agency is changing its headspace on how it deals with these permits, sort of weekly as we discuss more about how we can develop a better policy to make this easier, but as it stands without the policy in place, it's a very complicated process because there isn't a very clear cut procedure. We have four or five different permits we have to acquire and the conditions placed on those permits. The permits are highly variable and depends on the individuals assessing the applications on the day. So we have a quite a body of work of finding out who those individuals are and working directly with them to help them understand the project and what we're doing so that they don't put unrealistic conditions on us. It's my view, Mayor, that for the last project, some, what I thought were fairly unreasonable
00:40:00 conditions were placed on the local government in terms of responsibilities and signage and a bunch of things that became quite difficult. I think it's very difficult to manage as a project and costly as well because the state wasn't too sure what to do with a restoration project. Their thinking on restoration has evolved a bit even since then and we're hoping that the conditions they put on the permitting will at least be much simpler, but it's quite a journey to get them. It could take 12 to 18 months simply because there's so many people who get consulted. Mayor Stewart: So when you say costly, is that then incurred as an additional cost to the contract or is that all within the contract itself? Is that all accounted for? Speaker 1: The costs are within the contract, but what I'm talking more about is the liability, who's liable for issues that may arise with fishing, for example, or something. That's what the state got quite prickly last time and I'm trying to work with the state to try and calm them down a bit to make them not so cautious about how they permit a project in an area that they're not used to dealing with.
00:41:00 Mayor Stewart: So if there are liability issues, are we at risk as a council? Speaker 2: We need to maintain insurance. We maintained insurance for the previous project as well, so like anything, I mean if we initiate a project that involves a change in structure in the bottom of the river, then there's a risk there and the need to carry insurance to cover that risk. The degree of risk is to an extent determined by the state through their permitting processes. Mayor Stewart: And obviously quite subjective then from what you're saying. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a negotiation. It's a negotiation to some point because we're working in a space that's not standard government business. It's a new area of business for the government of this state and we will also have been connecting them up to other states which are more progressed in the restoration space to get guidance, for example, in Victoria, New South Wales or Western Australia and South Australia will have done more in this space than the Queensland government. Mayor Stewart: So it's unknown as to how much liability we can be exposed to? Speaker 1: We saw, we look at the permit conditions from the last round and we can see how far it can
00:42:00 go and I would definitely say that our liability this time would be less simply because we're working much closer with the agency with this project. We're also working with the Nature Conservancy and we're working also with the state government directly. We're not in an adversarial relationship with the state. We're actually treating it as a partnership project with the state so that their good world helps us make it, the conditions for this kind of work easier and that we benefit from that here at a local level as well. That's why we've been very careful that the people we've selected for our TAG are people who are in their places and positions of authority who advise on these things and so that they understand what we're doing and that they're less likely therefore to put onerous conditions on us. So we're trying to ameliorate risk by our engagements. Okay. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: We've got one more question from Councillor Durie. Councillor Jurisevic: My understanding is there's already an oyster restoration project in Cooran Bay and or the Bribie Passage. Correct. Does that help facilitate some of the concerns of the state because there's already a project that has been approved? Speaker 1: It certainly has put pressure on the state to consider this more seriously.
00:43:00 There is a lot of interest in restoration within the state and of course around the country. It's an area that's developed quite rapidly over the last 10 years and a lot of the science to support restoration has moved a long way within Australia. And so there is a lot of interest. The way it's happened elsewhere, for example Pumstown Passage, is that private organisations have approached the government for permits and it's got rather adversarial at times, I would suggest. But also it's forced the state to consider this issue more seriously. Our project's different because we're taking a partnership approach with the state and so we're getting a lot more buy-in from the state in the way we do it. Councillor Jurisevic: A bit more collaborative understanding. Speaker 1: That's right. Councillor Jurisevic: And my understanding is there's also like 20 current projects around the country in this sphere in other states? Speaker 1: I think collectively between the private organisations and the TNC work, yes. Do we have the paperwork for the partnership with the state? Mayor Stewart: Do we have the paperwork? Speaker 1: We don't have a formal relationship with the state but I think we should drive towards
00:44:00 a MOU or something in this space. I think it's something worth further discussion. But the council hasn't considered it and I think I'll leave it to Craig to comment on any thoughts along those lines. Mayor Stewart: So when we talk about, so partnership is not, you don't, sorry I'm just confused when you say we've got a partnership with the state. Is that a formal document that we have signed? Perhaps an approach. Speaker 2: We're talking more about an approach. Perhaps an approach. In the sense that we have the state sitting on a technical advisory group from the earlier stages of the project. So rather than us being a private person going say here's what we want to do, approve it or not, we're actually working with key people from the departments who authorise the permits right now. So we're basically working with them. Taking them on a journey. Mayor Stewart: So I was under the assumption you meant we had another signed document. No. Speaker 1: Though it would be nice. Mayor Stewart: So it's just a general term. Councillor Finzel: Craig I just have a question about that then. So on page 32 when you're talking about partnerships, you've got a department and environment science to be confirmed. So are you able to clarify?
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00:45:00 Speaker 1: To this date DES does not see it has a direct role in the Noosa River because there's no national park here for example. They have to initial permit for putting things in the river, but they don't see it as a critical part of their core work. So they're happy to be an advisory body on the side and liaise with us in an informal way. And they've nominated one of their senior permit officers to talk with me. But I'm actually encouraging to sit directly on the TAG and we're still working to get a position for the TAG. And we've made some representation to DES to get a person, but they have not been forthcoming yet, but we're still working because I would definitely like them at the TAG in a more formal sense. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Because they will be our concurrent agency. Can I ask a question there? Is that you're talking to regional officers of DES or to? Speaker 1: Regional, but now we're going to much, much higher level. Councillor Lorentson: Craig, on the membership for the technical advisory group, is there an opportunity to
00:46:00 invite community members? Community representatives? And in particular, can we invite families from historical commercial fishing families to sit in the group, given that I believe that they would provide valuable, independent historic input into the project? Speaker 1: That information sounds fantastic. And I know that some of that has already been captured, but I'd like to capture more of it. The TAG's not necessarily the best place to do that. You know, the TAG's not necessarily the best place to do that. So there's a range of subgroups that meet informally around this project already. International groups that I sit with, and also bilateral meetings I have with people to gather information. So there's many forums. The TAG is a TNC sort of construct to advise me on getting through the critical work. And that critical work is deployment in. It was probably the most important aspect. Other kinds of information that helps us build a stronger project with better community support.
00:47:00 There are multiple avenues. And my first avenue is always to go to a bilateral. And then if it warrants more people involved, then we can establish something or have some special event to capture that information if it needs to be more public. But broadening the group makes it unwieldy as a group to manage for me. I'm one individual doing this whole project. And I have to do a lot of administration already. And so we'll just look for the most efficient way to do that. It starts with the bilaterals and take the people directly and engage them. And then if there's a need for something else, we can. But for setting up another committee structure, it starts being a lot more for me to actually administer as well. And I'm concerned about that as not being efficient for any of us really to do it that way. Yeah, that's probably the key to it. Mayor Stewart: Sorry, Craig. So the technical advisory group, the TAG, the people who are on that are chosen by the Nature Conservancy. Right. How many people are on that? Speaker 1: We've got it for a moment. Sorry, it's in the report.
00:48:00 Speaker 2: They're chosen by the Nature Conservancy in partnership with Council. At the moment, outside of Council and Nature Conservancy membership, we have seven nominated representatives, five of which attended the first meeting. We've already spoken about Kabi Kabi and DES who I'm able to attend. Mayor Stewart: So bearing in mind that it is a partnership agreement between Council and the Nature Conservancy, is there the capacity, as Council Laurinson suggested, for us as a Council to have a representation on that group in the form of potentially some fishing families from the community? Speaker 1: I'd have to go back and talk to TNC about that. It's not a community stakeholder group. It's a technical group for a different purpose. However, if the Council's interested in doing that, then we could bring a proposal to TNC and I could take it to the TNC hierarchy. It does change the nature of the group. It makes the conversations different, because it's not a stakeholder reference group. It's an internal working group.
00:49:00 If it's going to be politicised as a group, then we'll need to talk more generally about the terms of reference for that group, I would suggest. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: And so I think we're getting to the point of questions being posed that are really advocacy for a position. So I'm going to call that concession to a halt. I think we need, as a Council, to decide whether we want to respect international scientific opinion about what should be on a technical advisory group, or whether we want to play with it as a group. Mayor Stewart: Well, I think there should be a little latitude there, because we're coming to this with new eyes. And so we're not abreast of this. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: I'm not discounting your points of view. I'm just saying, because we're using questions to make a point rather than just finding out information, I think the best place for that is at the General Committee, so that other Councillors who are not part of this Committee can have a similar view or a different view discussed. That's all. Councillor Finzel: I'm happy to have an alternative view discussed. I don't know at the meeting if that's what you like.
00:50:00 But I do think that it is, community needs to be involved at some capacity. We're not sure what that is yet. We're new kids on the block in these roles, and we're just trying to make sure there's equitable voice at the table for the community as well, who at the moment, there are a lot of issues around them feeling disengaged. Sure. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Yeah. Councillor Lorentson: This is a question, not an excuse to make a statement through a question. Craig, peer review assessment, is that... I've only read somewhere again in all the documentation that the reports will be peer reviewed. Can I ask who appoints the... That person? Speaker 1: The peer reviewer. What's the word? I don't know. It sends it out to the wider restoration community internationally, which is a range of private institutions, universities, with experts who have been working in this field for their commentary and feedback before reports are generally finalised.
00:51:00 And often from our reports, the standards that TNC operates at, usually scientific papers also become part of the products because the standards are kept at a very high level. TNC, as a not-for-profit organisation, has at its core a scientific foundation, and so it sets a very high standard for itself and for the communities of professionals within the works to hold each other to account for their standards, and TNC Australia program does the same, and that's why we invite international critique of our technical work. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Okay, we're good. So with someone like TNC, we'd like to move the motion that will be referred to General Committee. Moved by Councillor Stewart, seconded by Councillor Wegener.
00:52:00 All in favour? Pass. We move on to the Ringtail Euro project. Thank you, Craig. Thank you, Councillor. Speaker 3: I hope you get a job there unless you're going to Craig and Simon. Yeah. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Okay. Um. I suppose the author of the report is already sitting at the table, so we don't have anybody else. I do note, Councillors, that Noosa District Landcare are mentioned in the report as a group that's already contributed to this project, and there is potential that they may do so in the future. So as a cautionary measure, I do wish to restate my potential for a perceived conflict of interest in this matter. Due to the fact that as a sole trader in my business portfolio in Australia, I have both been contracted by and have subcontracted myself to the Noosa District Landcare prior to becoming a Councillor.
00:53:00 I'm also an ordinary member of the group with a long-standing association, including as council representative that assisted in its foundation in 1989. I've had long-standing collegial relationships dating back to that time with current members of the management committee of the group. Um. In both my professional roles and state government roles. Um. And through those roles and these relationships with members of the group, as I've already said. Um. I'd further advise that prior to me becoming a Councillor, I undertook a paid two-day consultancy, facilitating a meeting of Landcare members in 2015, and also subcontracted Landcare for a project, which is similar to what I said before. Councillor advised there was, yeah, there's no nexus between that work and the current project. Although I do wish to declare that some people may perceive the interest, and therefore I wish to declare that I think I can do this item impartially in the public interest, and request to remain in the meeting room to participate in the debate and vote upon the matter.
00:54:00 And I'm Chairman Sove. Speaker 3: So, Councillors, it's, um, just for information, once a Chairperson declares a conflict, unless it's a council meeting, at a council meeting automatically the Deputy Mayor takes over. Um. But at committee meetings, it's up to the committee to decide who's going to chair the meeting for the purpose of considering Councillor Stockwell's declaration. So if we need one of the other three Councillors to volunteer to chair the meeting to consider the declaration issue. And then once that's been dealt with, depending on what the outcome is, Councillor Stockwell will then return to chairmanship of the meeting. So, um, what I'd ask is that if any of the Councillors would like to volunteer to chair the meeting to consider the outcome, consider the conflict of interest question, um, then we can, I'll jump through that. So, um, if one of the other Councillors would like to nominate Councillor Stewart to chair the meeting. So, Councillor Wegener has nominated Councillor Stewart to chair the meeting, and Councillor Finzel has seconded that.
00:55:00 So all those in favour of that motion? Don't. You're allowed to vote. So, uh, that's passed. So for the purpose of considering this matter, uh, Councillor Stewart will now chair the meeting. And, uh, if you'd like any advice, I can give you that advice as well. Mayor Stewart: Thank you. Thank you. Would anyone have any questions? Does anyone have any questions to Councillor Stockwell in regard to his perceived conflict of interest? Councillor Wegener: Uh, we, we actually went through this, you know, exhaustively last month. Um, so, uh, I have, I have no further, no questions at which I've been, already been answered by, by, by. Speaker 3: Probably my observation, just my advice to Council would be at the last round of meetings when you considered this, it was considering a grant directly from Council to Landcare. In this particular case, in this report, there is no financial consideration being provided from Council to Landcare. It is simply that Landcare have done work for a third party on this site.
00:56:00 I don't have any questions. Councillor Finzel: Do you, Councillor? Um, I don't have any questions. Thank you for bringing that to our attention that the last discussion was based to a grant. Um, and as long as there's no financial benefits to be gained by Councillor Stockwell at this time, I'm happy to proceed. Speaker 3: So the way, from a Council perspective, um, you need to consider two things. Is it a real or perceived conflict of interest? And, um, if you stick to my advice, it would be a perceived conflict of interest. Yep. And then you can choose whether Councillor Stockwell can remain in the meeting or must leave the meeting. And one of the Councillors could make a resolution on those lines. Mayor Stewart: Okay. So I move a motion that, um, Councillor Stockwell may remain in the, in the room. Um, all in favour? Speaker 3: I just need a second. Mayor Stewart: A second, sorry. Thank you, Tom. Councillor Wegener, Kylie. All in favour? Councillor Stockwell. Back to you. Thank you. Speaker 3: And just before we go off that, it is always a wise thing for a Councillor.
00:57:00 That was, I gave advice to Councillor Stockwell that was probably marginal about whether or not he'd make that declaration. But when in doubt, I always say the Councillor would make the declaration. Mayor Stewart: When in doubt, shout out. Speaker 3: When in doubt, shout out. Yep. Deputy Mayor Stockwell: Okay. Thank you. So, have anyone got questions or wish further information on this topic to be brought to Monday's meeting? Speaker 3: Would you like me to speak just very briefly? Councillor, just a bit of background for this one. I, I try and do a report once a year on this, you know, quite significant project. Um, the project kicked off in 2017 with some negotiations which came to fruition in 2018 with, with contracts and agreements. Um, and in this particular report, uh, because we have a number of new Councillors, I've actually gone back and revisited the, that journey, if you like, from MOU into contracts in 2018 and, um, the update in 2019. Perhaps the only difference in this year's update is that we are looking at making a
00:58:00 good project even better in terms of whether we can do more remediation work on that site, um, using a proposal that's come through from Greencliffe. And I'll set out the detail from that. Maybe I can go through those in a bit more detail on, on Monday if there's, unless there's any questions in the meantime. It's quite a complex and, uh, long history of this. Um, probably the most complex tenure issue I've ever dealt with. Um, but the, yeah, the report sort of tries to go through a lot of that history and, and provide an update on where all the activity is at the moment and then look at a pathway forward to getting an even better outcome. Councillor Wegener: Yeah. It, what, um, the person in charge, I understand is you, Brett, the, the, how you managed to bring the HQ Plantations, Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Department of the Environment and Science, Noosa Parks Association, and the Noosa Council together to, to, to, and with the, um, HQ Plantations being an international organization, wow, what a, what a, um, an example
00:59:00 of great work. Speaker 3: I have to pay tribute to the former CEO now of HQ Plantations they were very very good to deal with as a corporate citizen they have certain environmental principles they were trying to incorporate into their organisation and the day that he said yeah I think we can do this was the day that it started to happen it couldn't have happened without him but he had lots of Deputy Mayor Stockwell: other parties there involved as well. It would be true to say that the opportunity for such a partnership was presented to Council from within the community rather than from within the organisation of Council so all the partners involved have had a very strong strategic view in this regard. I'd just like to comment that it may be the most beneficial morning tea I've ever had at a conference. In fact before the CEO got the phone call from Greenfleet I rang the
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01:00:00 CEO up over morning tea at the Coastal Conference and at that stage the whole ringtail era was just a fairly nebulous concept in terms of where we might be heading and said why don't you give the CEO a ring. So if we get four million dollars out of it, we've got more to chat. Speaker 3: Are there any other questions or other information that councillors would like before Monday? Deputy Mayor Stockwell: All good? Yeah all good thank you. So I'll move to the motion that has been referred to the General Committee for further discussion considering the significance of the matter is that what we're doing? Seconder? Seconder. And Finzel I'll go with and all in favour? Unanimous. Thank you.