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00:00:00 Speaker 8: And the number one is the revised community engagement policy for 2023. Ken, the table, to turn around a bit to give us an overview of what it's like. Speaker 7: Thanks, Councillor. Well, this is, we've just completed a review of the community engagement policy. It hasn't been done since 2017, obviously with COVID and floods, but probably the contributing factors. And we've now put on a community engagement advisor. So Caroline's, an apology today, she's actually out with the Eastern Beaches Protection Association and the forum that they've got as part of the Eastern Beaches engagement. But essentially what we've done is look at the 2017 policy, review that internally, and obviously it's part of the community engagement framework, which we're about to implement across the organisation as well, which councillors who are part of those, workshops to develop that framework. So it's been quite an extensive look at the policy.
00:01:00 Essentially, it links back to the new corporate plan, which is soon to be adopted. And it also looks at best practice community engagement in regards to trying to improve what we do in that community engagement space. Any questions? Councillor Wilkie: Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Ken. So basically it's a refresh and an updating of the community engagement, the engagement policy. On page seven of the report under council policy, it says the benefits of effective engagement include, and there's a number of dot points there. And I just wonder whether any of them, for example, the benefits of effective engagement include a higher level of community input into decisions made by council, an improved level of community understanding about councils, processes and services, increased awareness, I just wondered if any of those will be considered by your team as KPIs and you'll be measuring them as KPIs to gauge the success or otherwise of our new approach to community engagement.
00:02:00 Speaker 7: Thanks, Councillor. Councillor Wilkie: What benchmarks will you be using as the professional in this area? Speaker 7: I suppose one of the difficulties with community engagement is trying to get some data that shows whether it was successful or not successful. Because sometimes the whole premise is to have meaningful community engagement. So whether you use a number of, okay, we have 200 responses, was that meaningful or was that just a lot of people having their say about a particular project or initiative? Having said that, for the community engagement advisor on board now, one of her tasks, I suppose, is to work on much more closely with community engagement projects that might be happening across the organisation. And then reviewing them at the end of your engagement to say, well, okay, what went well, what didn't go well, what may need to be changed.
00:03:00 One of the benefits with the framework that we're about to put into place across the organisation is it has a matrix, so it really works on, you know, when to engage and when not to engage. So, you know, with the use of that matrix, we should be able to be a lot better in what we do in terms of community engagement. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah. So that matrix you referred to, Ken, does that help you, the staff, determine whether they're either just informing, they're collaborating, they're partnering, or they're empowering the community in the decision-making process? Speaker 7: Yes, exactly. So if we have a community engagement project that comes to us, we provide advice to that project team to say, well, okay, what are you endeavouring to achieve out of this community engagement? And then we look at the matrix, and that helps us along the spectrum. Obviously, we use... We use the IAP2 project concept, and we look at that, and the matrix allows us to go, okay, are we informing, are we collaborating, are we empowering?
00:04:00 So that gives us, you know, the premise to go out to the community and say, well, okay, in this particular instance, this is really an informed scenario, so a lot more of it's probably communication. If it's collaboration, which is getting further down the spectrum, then that changes the whole premise of what you can do. So it's really about how you would engage, and what tools you would utilise to engage. Councillor Wilkie: And you made a very good point before there about how we want the engagement to be meaningful. Do you have methods to determine how meaningful an engagement was? Do you have ways of getting that information from participants about how meaningful they thought the feedback was? Speaker 7: There's probably not one specific tool. Yeah. A lot of it comes down to the outcomes. So when you go into community engagement, you have negotiables and non-negotiables that are part of your community engagement project. So when you finish an engagement project, you look at going, okay, the negotiables we had during that project, were they achieved?
00:05:00 What changes were made? What input was given? And then your outcome is really, allows you to determine whether it was successful or not. So there's no magic tool that goes. That engagement was perfect. With the IAP2 spectrum, you have best practice methods, so you want to make sure that those best practice methods are utilised for every engagement. And as I said, depending on the spectrum, informing is part of community engagement, but that's really just providing information to the community. Collaborating is where you have those negotiables and non-negotiables, and then you look at it and go, well, okay, have we made some changes to this project or initiative by the engagement and the collaboration that we've had with the community? Thank you. Councillor Wilkie: Does that answer your question? It helps a lot, Cam. Thank you. Speaker 8: Thank you, Mel, for the before. You can be fairly certain.
00:06:00 It can be in a mail-out to every household. It's so convenient to get feedback and understand the number of engagements, but you can also not always tell a lot of detail about the engagement that they are. I love the community members a lot, and things like that, all of those things. But good and meaningful interaction with the community and getting good feedback on that, I'm not ever around them, but it's not unimportant. The better we do this process and the better it's understood throughout, and more consistent now throughout the organisation, in our approach and our methodology, the better the community will engage in the process. The process is going to fall down to that. Speaker 7: Most definitely, and again, it comes down to, you know, you want to create partnerships. Not every engagement means the decision is going to please everyone, because obviously part of the engagement is to get all the information, get the knowledge from the community, but at the end of the day, the decision has to be made.
00:07:00 And once that decision is made, you hope, with good community engagement, you get good outcomes by going through that process. There's always going to be that situation where some section of the community may feel like they haven't really been heard, because the decision hasn't gone their way. But at the end of the day, you want to make sure you hear every component, and then you have to make a decision. So, you know, and that's what this policy is about, is to try and put some parameters around. How we engage, and how to the depth we engage, depending on the project and the mission. Councillor Lorentson: So, I've got a couple of questions, but just following on from what Councillor Wilkie just said. Given it's a community engagement policy, did we actually ask the community to evaluate our framework through a community satisfaction survey or something?
00:08:00 I keep going back to that. To, you know, listening to what everyone's saying at the table. We need to evaluate whether or not what we're doing is effective or not. And I get the outcomes, get the criteria. My two questions is, would it have been as simple as just ask the community what works, what doesn't work? Speaker 7: That's done, the framework is internal, so that gives us parameters of how we achieve best practice community engagement. So, that is obviously like an internal operating guideline. So, the framework's not what we're talking about today. The policy gives us a set of rules, I suppose, as to how best practice community engagement happens. Obviously, like any policy, it gets reviewed. So, as we, I suppose, the way I look at it is this puts a line in the sand. 2017 to 2023 is a long time.
00:09:00 But 2023 is now the line in the sand. This is our policy. Here's the guidelines we've got in regards to how we engage the community. And then that gets reviewed after every engagement process. So, we're going to get it right sometimes. Sometimes we're going to get it wrong. And when you get it wrong, you want to make sure that you look at what didn't work and making sure that gets put into the policy on the next review. So, in answer to your question, no, we didn't go into the community with the engagement policy because it was essentially a review of the existing policy. But we've made changes in regards to, I suppose, linking it back to the new corporate plan and linking it back to our internal framework that will guide community engagement moving forward. Councillor Lorentson: So, after this concept, the community engagement implementation plan, and is that what happens? Well, it puts parameters. Speaker 7: Yeah, the policy puts parameters around how we're going to engage with the community.
00:10:00 So, the community can see that policy and go, okay, these are the steps you're going to take in terms of community engagement. And then, no doubt, they will tell us if we get it right or if we have areas for improvement. So, the policy allows us now to have that baseline where, okay, moving forward, let's make sure we are continually looking back at the policy to see what is working. So, we've got those guiding principles within our framework which will determine how we engage. Councillor Lorentson: In terms of more detail, like a step-by-step guide, do you provide practical guidance to the staff on how to conduct public participation activities? Speaker 7: That's within the framework that we've just developed with our new community engagement advisor. Yeah. So, having that person on board now with their expertise allows her and our team to give much better advice about how to engage, what works, what doesn't work.
00:11:00 And each engagement initiative can be very, very different. Like, we've got three out at the moment which are very different in the way we're engaging because they're different information, I suppose. You've got the eastern beaches. Then you've got the waste strategy. And then you've got, you know, the heritage strategy as well. So, three very different. So, you're not going to use the exact same engagement principles for each of those three. But using your policy, it allows you the ability to look at the policy and say, well, okay, are we at least meeting what is required for those individual projects? Speaker 8: Yeah. Well, I want to start. We've had a number of staff take part in our advisory training. And I think it's really important to find time for the latest and understanding what the outlier's procedures really are. Yeah. Speaker 7: And as I said, the main thing we're trying to achieve here with this policy and the framework that we're implementing across the organisation is just to have that, you know, as I said, meaningful way of engaging and making sure that we're dotting the I's and crossing the T's as best we can.
00:12:00 We're not always going to get it right. But at least it would give the community an opportunity to have a say if that's, if the project needs community engagement, then we've got now that framework that allows the organisation, people within the organisation to have some understanding of, I suppose, what's at least the minimum standard. And then as we move, I mean, best practices, what we want to achieve, that comes down to resourcing people with the necessary skill set to do community engagement in the way that it needs. Community engagement. I just find is a contact sport. You've got information, you've got communication, which is just a flow of information. When you decide to community engage, you're in for contact. It can be good contact. It can be. Councillor Wilkie: So it's not just a gentle caress. Sorry.
00:13:00 Not a gentle caress. Speaker 7: Well, it's a gentle caress, but sometimes it can hurt. Gentle embrace. Councillor Wilkie: Just a quick question. When is the corporate plan, draft corporate plan going out for consultation? Speaker 7: The second phase. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah. Speaker 7: We are hoping it can go out Friday, but we're still waiting for the final draft to come back from the graphic designers. There's been a few tweaks and technical information changes and imagery and all that sort of stuff. So the hope is to get it out by Friday this week. At worst, I would say Monday or next week. And that's two weeks. Again, that's a different form of consultation. It's going out for two weeks to show here's what we've taken on board from your engagement. Have we missed anything? Have we hit the right spots? Councillor Wilkie: I'm going to take your point about it being a contact sport, because it's a great opportunity to see where our key, as you say, the non-negotiables in a project stack up when subject to pressure
00:14:00 and robust questioning from the community. So it's a good way to find out if we're heading the right direction. And it's also an opportunity to find better ways of doing things. Speaker 7: Exactly. As I said, you're not always going to get it right when you do community engagement. It's trying to do it as best you can with the resources you've got, with the time you have. Like anything, planning is a big part of community engagement. If it's planned well, it can be executed well. If it's planned all in through time constraints, budget constraints, whatever it might be, sometimes you don't get the best outcome. And that's not blaming anyone. Councillor Wilkie: It doesn't serve anyone. Speaker 7: Sometimes it just happens through the nature of the place that we are as a global government. There's so many different scenarios, projects, initiatives, et cetera, et cetera. Councillor Lorentson: So one of the desired outcomes with the community engagement policy and plan is we want to maximise
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00:15:00 participation. My question is in terms of minority groups, young people, people with disability, Indigenous, people from different backgrounds, nationalities, LGBTQIQ community, et cetera. How do we maximise participation of those smaller groups? Speaker 7: $64 question, isn't it, Kelsey? There's so many difficult groups to get to. And you can throw as much money as you like into that. But I think the way we look at an engagement project is still probably going to miss some of those groups. With Caroline coming on board, that's one of the things we've spoken about is how do we get to the youth? How do we get to the Indigenous? So again, it's about that pre-planning process and having the matrix allows you to match stakeholder mapping. The stakeholder mapping is a big part of community engagement.
00:16:00 If you have the time, you then have the ability to do a much better stakeholder mapping process. And to answer your question, that's probably the key, is the more time you have, the better you can stakeholder map. And the better outcome you get. So we'll be looking at that as part of over the next few years. How do we make sure we get, you know, is it the development of the youth council? Is it, you know, having an advisory group that has those people? There's so many different ways. Access and inclusion. Yeah. Councillor Lorentson: And shouldn't we set as a criteria or a pay-per-appoint that, you know, a small percentage is at least contacted? Just so people know. So that we actually include. You know, we're proud of being an inclusive community. Should that be just a standard criteria? A must? Speaker 7: Well, that comes from your stakeholder mapping.
00:17:00 Again, it depends on the project, I suppose. Some people, you know, depending on what section of the community they're from, may not just legitimately have any interest in our community. So if you go and say every time you're going to do an engagement project, you want to get 2% of the indigenous community. It depends on the project. Absolutely. Because obviously, if you're doing a project that is about specifically the indigenous community, your stakeholder mapping would say, well, we really need to get X amount of people. So it's that meaningful part again. You know, we're really hesitant to put numbers and percentages because that. Councillor Lorentson: Or should it be just that someone from that community is contacted and then asked them to distribute to their next community? Oh, yeah. Speaker 7: And that's part of the stakeholder mapping. That's where you sort of go and look at who you need to get to. As I said, throwing something on social media will get masses, but you've really got to have that targeted engagement as well.
00:18:00 You know, go to the group that is going to be impacted or has some, you know, ability to have some say on it. So it's about, you know, allowing those community networks to work for you as well in regards to getting that information. And again, they may not. Once you get the information to them, they might turn around and say, well, we're not really interested. Thanks anyway. Move on. So that has to be captured as well. Because when you're reading the report, you see that certain section of the community you really didn't want to have. There's no input from them. You can automatically assume, oh, did we actually get to them? But you did. But they just may not have any interest. So you've got to make sure you can capture that as well. Councillor Lorentson: In terms of all the information that's collected, is it used? And how do we protect the privacy of our residents under the privacy information? Can you just give me an idea? Speaker 7: Well, obviously, as part of the policy governance, as we view the policy to make sure that, you
00:19:00 know, it's in line with their, you know, their, you know, their privacy requirements. So, you know, we're pretty much governed by, you know, the rules and regulations within governance as well. So we don't go and use any of the information unless it directly pertains to the community engagement project that we're engaging on. Councillor Lorentson: One last question. The cost of participation. Do we actually... For the cost to each public engagement activity, how much is the cost to each public engagement activity that we do? And is that information disclosed or brought back to council? Speaker 7: Well, the way, the way it works within this organisation is, you know, each area would have... So let's take Eastern Beaches, for example. So that's being run by the environment section within council. They come to us and say, right, we have a budget of X amount of dollars to conduct community engagement for this particular project.
00:20:00 So with that, we then work out what's the best way to utilise those funds to get the best outcomes. So that may be sometimes engaging a consultant, which we have done in this instance. But also having our staff out there doing pop-ups as well. And then you'd have a, you know, an advertising budget, which, you know, is a certain percentage within... You try to get a certain percentage within the, you know, the budget of the actual project to say, well, we might need X amount of dollars to make sure we get it out to some advertising for this and, you know, to advertise the pop-ups. So there's, there is an overall budget within the project. And that would be, I suppose, how you capture the cost of a particular project. So some engagement is done without any budget at all. You know, so that's the catch-22, I suppose, depending on the project. Councillor Lorentson: So the International Association for Public Participation, they talk about their five levels of public engagement.
00:21:00 Just an idea. So if it's a level one informal consult, could you make it as simple as X amount, if it's just as simple, it's a consult with the community, communicate the decision, then X amount of funds should be spent on a level one. Is that part of your plan? Speaker 7: Well, again, it's difficult to put set parameters on those because, like, for example, in form, you might go, let's do a quarter page ad in the newspaper, a couple of social posts, media release, and put it in the in-use or something like that. So there are a lot, there's no cost involved in that apart from the advertising. So if you said minimum cost is $500 for that sort of engagement, it's difficult because, again, it depends on the market. It depends on the project. You know, some projects warrant, you know, probably more expenditure than other projects. So it really is a courses by courses type scenario.
00:22:00 It's difficult. You know, like, obviously, if everyone came with $3,000, you know, $5,000 budget, you'd be able to do a lot more. But is that good use of Great Pays money when it's about informing the community? Councillor Wilkie: And there's a big difference between a letter drop for 10 houses as opposed to 500 houses. Exactly. That would be one example. Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your cost for a letter box drop could be, you know, thousands of dollars. And that's just in your form. OK. Speaker 8: And the element of the form might be a project at the end of a colourless accent. There might be some bright works going on rather than just these people in the colourless Speaker 7: What we aim to do is, if they come to us with a community engagement project, we would say, this one's quite detailed, extensive, we probably need to think about X amount of dollars to cover advertising, promotion, because one of the best outcomes for community engagement, if you don't let people know you're engaging, then you're not going to get a great outcome.
00:23:00 So you need to spend a little bit to make sure that that information gets here. But again, you've got to be cost effective. Speaker 8: I would think that element comes from the executive team that the project has put forward. You know, the understanding of the level of complexity of the project, the type of community engagement process, and yourself and your team involved at that stage, saying, well, if you don't do that, you're going to leave a page on social services. That's the planning stage and all of that. Speaker 7: Exactly, that's again that pre-planning. That's that pre-planning. And how much you should allocate and what you need to allocate to be effective. Speaker 8: Thank you. Far away, Councillor Tinsley-Lewin. Councillor Finzel: Thank you. Thanks everyone for the report and what was noted around the table. Given the duality of the framework, and we've had a lot of conversation about engagement with the community,
00:24:00 this is through the Chair and the CEO, and the document is about guiding staff and how to design and plan and deliver this. What process is going to be put in place to support the staff to make sure that they're getting the right development and training, and also for continuous improvement moving forward to show that where we're investing, we're meeting the targets and the outcomes that we're seeking, not only in the stakeholder process and engagement, but internally. Speaker 5: Through the Chair, Councillor Tinsley-Lewin, thanks very much for your question. I want to take something between myself and the manager of comms and community engagement. What we're looking at doing is being able to create a pool within our council group that has the training, the skills, and then also the want to be able to undertake community engagement. It's a skill, and we've all got different levels of skills, given the diversity of our business here in council,
00:25:00 and we all have different parts of business we're subject matter experts on. So we need to be able to create a pool. I think council has made a magnificent step in last year's budget in being able to put funding forward for a community engagement officer. Having that staff member now on board funnels through all of the work that we're doing as a council, and then we'll be able to help guide and direct all parts of our business as to what is the most appropriate mechanism to be able to engage that community on. This now sets that framework for our future policy setting that we've now been able to review, and we've been able to modernise and get it to a standard that will actually deliver for what our community needs. And given that we do have quite a diverse local government area, from our beaches to our residential areas, all the way through to the rural hinterland, the different methods that are required to meaningfully engage our community need to have those different parameters that are in place. So through the chair, I might just hand it to Ken,
00:26:00 just to be able to talk about some of the internal work that we're doing to be able to get that door of staff together. Speaker 7: Thanks, Scott. Thanks, Councillor Finzel. So as I've mentioned, we have a new community engagement framework which provides guidelines for us as an organisation, staff included, about the best way forward for community engagement. What we're going to do as part of the implementation plan, Caroline is now going to within the organisation to their team meetings, you know, setting up meetings, et cetera, or workshops, and she is going to try and identify, you know, the right people within the organisation that can help with community engagement because, as we've said, it is a very specific skill set. We're very fortunate to find someone like Caroline who has got extensive experience in community engagement. So she's come on board and hit the ground running, which has been fantastic. So to get this framework up and running, you might recall you've been part of the workshop, so we've been developing that internally.
00:27:00 So what we want to do is get, I suppose, engagement ambassadors for one of the better work within the organisation so that when we do have community engagement, we can call upon these people if their workload allows to be able to assist with community engagement. So like I said, Caroline's out there today at a workshop with the Eastern Beaches, obviously in conjunction with the environment team to assist them. We've got a consultant on board as well. But other projects may be just Caroline and the staff handling that engagement. So it's about having the right people so that we get the best outcome for the community. Councillor Finzel: And how are you planning to measure the success of those outcomes? Speaker 7: Well, I suppose the measure comes from whether we have good outcomes or poor outcomes. If you have poor outcomes for community engagement, what do you really need to look at? What are we doing wrong? What can be improved? You know, it's all about continuing improvement and looking at what went right.
00:28:00 And that'll be the measure, I think, in regards to moving forward. So Eastern Beaches, the three we've got out at the moment, at the end of those consultation periods, you'll look at them and say, did we get the necessary information? Did it help shape the policy or the facility or the project that we're doing? And by the time they tend to get it right, you have good community engagement, which means you have less pushback from the community. You may always get that pushback from the community when a decision's made that they're not comfortable with, but that's part of community engagement. Speaker 8: Do you know any of the people in the room back there were affected by what you were about to say? I didn't know anything about that. Yeah. Yeah. And that unfortunately happens from time to time again Speaker 7: because they may be in the way at the time, weren't aware of what's happening. Speaker 8: And the other side of that, Mr CEO, is you have a training budget. And I'll harass you every month, as I typically do,
00:29:00 just to make sure you're spending it appropriately on the sort of things we want to see. Speaker 5: Thank you, Chair. And note that your discussion points, as opposed to harassment, is coming from our organisation, and I'm saying I want to come to the table and say, Council of Jurisevic, here's the training we've been delivering. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Lorentson: So, Ken, just a quick question. I'm going to follow on what everyone's talking about. Is it as simple as just asking the question after every survey or engagement process activity, do you feel like... Ask the residents, do you feel like you've been listened to? So, we've got the quantitative measures, the qualitative measures. Just ask, you know, did you like the way that this activity, public engagement process, was undertaken? Speaker 7: Yeah, I'll probably take that on notice to ask Caroline, because she's got some ideas about, you know, how we can measure.
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00:30:00 Sometimes, again, you want to be careful of not over-asking questions constantly to the community. I think the best way, in the experience I've had with community engagement, you sort of get a gut feel whether it worked or whether it didn't work. And you'll know with the outcomes you get from community engagement whether it was successful or not as well. So, and the community will definitely tell you it didn't get it right. So, you know, asking them the question is probably a little bit superfluous because you're going to hear from those ones that may not have... But, as I said, measurement is a key part of any project and any community engagement practice that you do. It's part of, you know, best practice. So, that'll be definitely a component that we'll look at from project to project. Yeah. Speaker 8: And the proof is in the pudding. There's a strong enough voice telling you that something's not right and you don't change anything, you know, you haven't decided on your engagement. You have less doubt about it.
00:31:00 Speaker 7: And, again, it comes back to those meaningful conversations and understanding the community views. And there's always going to be the people that are happy and the people that aren't. It's about trying to minimise the unhappiness and pushing it up here because, like any community engagement, you will have success and, unfortunately, you will have failure. It's making sure you have more success than failure. Speaker 8: I don't think anyone's suggesting Councillor Wilkie: a Yes Minister situation and doing a survey on a survey. Speaker 7: No. Definitely not. Councillor Wilkie: But I notice that a lot of the feedback surveys do have any other comments. Do you find residents will express their opinion about the meaningfulness or otherwise of a community consultation? In those, any other comments? Speaker 7: Yes and no. Again, depending on the extent of the project and the community interest in the project. But very rarely do you have people say,
00:32:00 well, it's social media, but rarely will you have a lot of people making a comment in those additional comments. It will more relate to the project itself. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah, OK. Speaker 7: And, you know, but like anything, community engagement is a context book and it's a moving piece. You start with a plan but you make sure you look constantly and reviewing that project and plan throughout the whole life of the community engagement so that, you know, OK, we should have had a workshop here, we'll move back and make sure we have a workshop or one extra pop-up here or whatever. You start with an idea and then gauge it as you go to see whether it needs to be tweaked. Councillor Wilkie: I'll be very interested to see what Carolyn comes up with in terms of ideas for improvement. Is there any harm in having at the bottom of each survey in what ways could this community engagement be improved? Speaker 7: Yeah. It might be something as simple as that. Councillor Wilkie: She might be thinking about it.
00:33:00 Oh, it's got a whole range of ideas. Speaker 7: Yeah. Speaker 8: You know, do you need to be engaged in this process? Councillor Wilkie: Yeah, what improvements? Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 8: Yeah. Ken? Hmm? Probably should have asked that from the beginning. As I read through the track changes, lots of little tweaks to words and language and things along those lines and some of those pieces, but there are some significant changes in here. Do you want to explain what the most significant changes are? Speaker 7: Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously, again, governments were fairly heavily involved in the review of the policy. So human rights was a big part of the review, which wasn't around in 2017, I suppose. So when you have a policy review, you look at the human rights concept. Our principles have moved from nine to eight. So they're principles that have come out through the internal workshops that we've had with staff, councillors, the executive team, et cetera. So there's not a big change there.
00:34:00 Does it mean we lost Chris? No, definitely not. Just fine tuning. And probably, you know, the involvement of councillors a little bit as regards to, you know, what involvement councillors have and can play in community engagement as well is another part of the revision. So they're probably the key ones. But obviously, the corporate plan, making sure that it aligns to... You know, we've got a draft corporate plan that we've assumed is not going to change too much. But we've taken a look at that new corporate plan to make sure that this policy is reflective of what is the corporate plan moving forward. Speaker 8: I'm happy to move it. Anything further? No. Moved by Councillor Wilkie, seconded by Councillor Winston. Council of the Mayors, South East Queensland. Concepts of our land and area waste and environment. That's the fire area as well. Any questions?
00:35:00 And the director of construction line is obviously... And Larry's on. Can you check? I'll do. Can you give us a bit of a summary of what the... Speaker 3: your item's all about? Yeah, I'll do, check. Council of Mayors, South East Queensland In 2005 as an autonomous advocacy organisation, in September 2021 Noosa Council joined the organisation and following the publication of the South East Queensland Waste Management Plan in 2021, which was endorsed by all member councils including us, a funding package was announced by the state government to facilitate the employment of resource recovery infrastructure. After conducting an internal review of potential projects and collaborating with the exec team of councillors in December last year, we are seeking approval to proceed with the process of advancing those projects through the CONSEC gateways and process and I'm asking for a recommendation to continue that process.
00:36:00 Speaker 8: And what sort of projects and processes were you put forward for consideration? The ones that you put forward? The ones that meet the criteria and the direction of the South East Queensland Waste Management Plan. Speaker 3: That's the intention, yes. Yep, any questions? Councillor Wilkie: Yeah. Did you want to go first Amelia? I'll go first. Okay. Thank you. It's pretty exciting, Kiron. You mentioned that the Queensland government announced $2.1 billion for waste initiatives and you've listed some for proposals for Noosa Council including compaction bins, composting, containers for change, biochar, polystyrene processing machine, anaerobic digestion and waste to energy initiatives, with a total of $38 million. Could you just unpack, so a couple of questions, what each of those ideas are, potential benefit to Noosa and whether they would be in partnership with other councils in terms of, you know,
00:37:00 in terms of, for example, a waste to energy project, would that be shared, a facility shared between other councils, or would they be solely serving Noosa Council alone? Speaker 3: So a bit of a complex question there. Yeah, complex question for a lot of complicated processes. I'll try and keep it brief, Councillor. Councillor Wilkie: Thank you. Speaker 3: If I start from the top. Compaction bins are a trial we're running currently. At Hastings Street. And the purpose of those is numerous. One being reducing emissions, traffic, but also helping with the logistics. But we do have an issue with Hastings Street and with the boardwalk. Those bins are solar powered.
00:38:00 They utilise a two-forms bin within the enclosure. They compact material down to a level which can reduce our collection frequency down to three a day to once every three, four days. Councillor Wilkie: So is that a ninth or a twelfth? Speaker 3: It's really down to the material that goes in. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah. Speaker 3: The material that goes into a lot of the bins, particularly down in our precincts, is high volume and low energy. Yeah. Pizza boxes and that sort of material. And they're really, they block the bins. So the bin might be completely empty. But it's choked up with pizza boxes and everything's filling up on top. So it's down to behaviour and how acceptable as well as just the nature of the base we're producing. And the type of bins. And the type of bins and the architecture as well. So this takes a few boxes. There's some things that we would like to improve on the trial that we're running at the moment. And we're working with the supplier on that trial.
00:39:00 But this is a full project to roll out bins across down that, in that precinct region. Speaker 4: And that's one is 15, isn't it? One is 15. Is that right? It's worth 15 little bins? Is that the amount of rubbish you can hold? Is that right? Speaker 3: It's one to five. One to five. And that's really depending on what waste you put in there. And that's the difference with Hastings Street. I think we, the trial we conducted outside of Boost Juice I think it's called. We were collecting waste there twice a week when we typically were doing that once or twice a day. So we were collecting it Monday and Friday and that's all we did for that. Cups were there. Yeah. Cups were there. Packaging was all there. So it worked well in that waste round. The second project on there is composting. Composting. Speaker 8: That's the second iteration of Compact Compaction Bins that we've tried. We've actually done four of those, too. It's outside the Cooroy Library, which is the first breed of bins. It was an earlier offer and had a different style of bin.
00:40:00 It's a process, but a different style of bin. So it would have us... They were $5,000 and we filed them six, seven, eight years ago. So, yeah, so that's... This is where the next generation has gone to take a fuller... Yes, this gets... Speaker 3: ..a more standard type of bin. Yeah, sorry to end up there, Councillor. Sorry to interrupt you. Some of the problems that we identified were identified all across Supreme White Island. In that bin, we've addressed those problems with the suppliers and ended some of their amendments to Europe. And this bin addresses some of the logistic issues at the back of that previous bin. So it's actually a normal 240 bin that you would have in a... That's what your residence... It goes into the receptacle. The top's open and the compaction unit presses down and compacts it into the bin, which just makes it easy for the logistics at the back end with the normal logistics provider like CleanAway. Fantastic. Councillor Lorentson: So these are projects that we're putting forward
00:41:00 for the SEQ waste management plan. But after our trials, the council has the appetite and we just purchase a tonne of these bins come along because I don't want to wait 10 years to stop overflowing bins because... Speaker 4: Yeah, we just have one as a trial. I'm not doing anything about it. They're $15,000 a bin. Speaker 3: Yeah, they're $15,000 a bin. We have to use stainless steel and a certain type of stainless steel bin for the reason down there, even salt and egg. Councillor Lorentson: But... Is there anything stopping us as a council to purchase smart bins or compaction bins? Getting funding from another source. Speaker 3: And I guess any position on the time within that we can either fund it or look to try and get a grant. What are the limitations? Yeah. Councillor Wilkie: So composting, sorry. Could we go through the other projects, please? OK, so composting. Speaker 3: We broadly collect nearly 19,000 tonnes of green waste
00:42:00 in Noosa a year. 19,000? Councillor Wilkie: Yes. Speaker 3: Through our curbside collection commercial and self haul into the landfill. We double grind or single grind that material. If it's single ground, we usually give it away. If it's double ground, we usually sell it. We do sell some of that to farmers and that market's been opened up with some support from the council to try and drive that market. It does seem to be opening up. The next step in the process of treating green waste is to compost it. And that's, I guess, we're value adding to the material we already have. And that would be a prospect which I think would move us forward in terms of treatment and secure our market at the back end. Councillor Wilkie: So you've got a $10 million price tag on that. What's the facility, a composting facility look like? Speaker 3: Effectively, it's a large concrete pad and you utilise the equipment
00:43:00 to stockpile and rotate, irrigate and, you know, pasteurise the material. So you're cutting off weeds and bacteria and you've got a material which is pretty much a compost at the end. So we've got the pad area but there's infrastructure required and machinery would be required and operations, obviously. Speaker 8: The difference in what we're doing at the moment is this would take it to an Australian standard of product which currently isn't done because the temperatures and the processes involved to take it to an Australian standard Speaker 3: Continue on, containers for change. So I think everyone understands that. Yeah, so we've got a trial unit that we're using. We've got out the landfill at the moment. It is the first of its kind, built in Queensland. It uses AI, infrared, way cells to identify containers that are in the scheme. It has the ability to shred and compact those containers as well as sort them.
00:44:00 So there's four or five different types of plastic in the stream of Coex. It will take those four streams, HDPE, LTP, PET, PE, and separate them into different streams and shred those if need be. We don't have that application right at the moment because of Coex, but we're trying that with a kit. It's currently installed and we've got a few motions as we speak. Speaker 8: Is this something you could probably bring their containers to or the ones that are just dumped in yellow bins for recycling? Speaker 3: It would be for the public. So that's the intention. The public could use it. And it's a revenue generator as well as it would help with diversion. We'll see a lot of... There'll be a business case in favour of something as well. Exactly. So the business case would need to stack up for it to go through this and we would fund it ourselves. Biochar. Biochar. So this process is, I guess, a chemical process that's reducing or removing all the organic compounds.
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00:45:00 They have particularly wood waste, which is what we're looking for in terms of the application. We have a lot of wood waste that comes into the landfill. We've defined it in two streams, one being clean, which is material that's not painted or treated, and the other being dirty. We want to review the process in terms of treating those two material streams because at the moment there's a huge amount of timber and if we can get that material out by the correct power, or at least char that helps with our compost, it will be a value-added again. Speaker 8: Councillor Winkler's doing capitalism again. Speaker 3: I can see the smiles. Councillor Wilkie: And you can sell biochar, can't you? Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I think the current thought process would be from the clean material, if we develop a biochar, that biochar will be integrated with our compost and we'd create a stream that's got considerable value. The dirty stream, or the treated timber, that's the bit we're trying to work with industry to understand exactly what that can be useful if we work through this biochar.
00:46:00 Councillor Lorentson: So, I'm reading a little bit, not a little bit, a lot about what's happening in Logan City, the biosolid gasification project. Come further down. So, that's the anaerobic digestion. But I'm thinking they, isn't biochar one of their sort of by-products, changing the sewage sludge into, I don't know, they process the sewage sludge. But I thought biochar was one of the end products and they're actually planning international markets for it. Yeah. Speaker 3: I've heard about that project. We're actually going to visit that particular suppliers. But that's, we have a biosolid. So, they're taking sewage sludge in the end of that product and turning that into a, some sort of char and utilizing that for probably a fertilizer, I would suggest, yeah.
00:47:00 Next one on there is anaerobic digestion. So, this one. Polystyrene. Do I miss polystyrene? Polystyrene. So, polystyrene, we take an enormous amount of polystyrene at the landfill. It displaces a huge amount of volume in terms of waste volume that we can put into that landfill. Circa 15 kilos of polystyrene displaces one ton of waste. So, one ton of polystyrene is 66 tons of waste. Involving volume in the landfill? Involving, what you would actually put in the landfill in terms of waste volume equivalent. So, from a cost perspective, that's, you know, cost displaced is the new term. So, from a cost perspective, that's $10,000. The process that we're looking at, and we've been trying it for six months, extrudes that polystyrene by heat down to a brick and reduces that volume considerably in terms of your product
00:48:00 can be sold and reused until it's sold. Unfortunately, that reselling turns it back into polystyrene, but it removes the- Keeps it in the water? Keeps it in the water, exactly. Is that okay? Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Next one is anaerobic digestion. So, effectively, this would be targeting food waste, and a very key aspect of Comsex's strategy is to remove food waste. Food waste in our landfill, obviously, has issues with methane generation. Our current treatment of methane is to burn it or a flare, which is, I would say, highly inefficient from the UK experience. Utilising an anaerobic digester is effectively taking the anaerobic digestion out of the food waste, not putting it in the landfill, harnessing that energy in that food waste and turn them into some sort of gas. That gas can then be utilised as a power source, as a gas source, and even from others I understand,
00:49:00 new technologies to the hybrid. So, there's a number of aspects you can do at the back end of this process. Those aspects are not set in stone for us right now, but the thought process is along that line. Speaker 8: So, you're down to looking at power in your waste trucks? Councillor Wilkie: Yes. Speaker 8: Again, it can be turned into fuel, yes. Councillor Wilkie: And would that be a shared facility with other councils, Cairo, or we could have one here, servicing Noosa? Speaker 3: I think that's a question that would be hard to answer right now, because we need to look at a feasibility study to really understand that. Councillor Wilkie: Do we have the volume of food waste that would feed that? Speaker 3: I know from just the gas we produce in the landfill, we'll probably put in about 12,000 tonnes of food waste a year. Speaker 8: Yeah, a lot of it's going to funding out of the FOMSEC. Collaboration is a large part of that. We're approaching to get that. So, down to business cases and all the rest of it that we have to consider as to whether it's something we can replace locally or replace originally.
00:50:00 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think ideally you'd want to be with other neighbouring councils and look to share volume, share assets like that, and utilise the networks and logistic networks that we have. We do talk to our neighbours, Gimp and Sunshine Coast, in the waste space, and there are discussions around tonnages and FOMSEC are actively encouraging that. So, the discussions are there. I think, you know, trying to formalise those is in a lot of direction. And then where the shared assets sit is the discussion going forward. Speaker 5: Thank you, Chair. Just for council officers to understand why it's important to be able to have food organics separated from marine organics. You could just go down that path for council by right, because there is that view of bringing them together to create mass, but they choose separate products. Maybe we could talk about that. Speaker 8: So, you know, you're on my wavelength, Bill. Sorry about that. Speaker 3: Great lines, Chair. Yeah. So, there's two, there's an aspect of food waste that has a nasty side, which is its
00:51:00 contamination levels. So, typically, food waste, not necessarily from the source of kerbside collection, but from the source of commercial food waste, typically has a high contamination level. To then utilise that material and mix it with your green waste, and then put it through some sort of composting procedure, which doesn't allow you to do that. You've got to track the, sorry, to remove the gas element, or the energy element out of that food waste. But the end product is you'll end up with 25,000 tonnes of compost that is contaminated, and then you've got to spread that to land. So, trying to, the term I would use is scramble the egg before you cook it. What we're aiming at here is trying to get source separation, sort of separate at source, at the public or at the commercial entity, and that typically is the European model. They like to sort of separate, they allow for inefficiency in the machinery, knowing
00:52:00 that it's not as efficient or 100% efficient, and try and keep the product at the end as clean as possible. Because the end product is where most people forget, and that's the bit that's got to go to land. So, you're ending land banks to spread that material, or farmers that could deal with that material. So, keeping it clean and keeping the end product as high quality as possible is the key. And that's broadly what we're trying to set up here, around the end product being high quality. That, is that clear? Speaker 8: That's one of the, one of the greatest, one of the largest complaints we get about the secret of the double grind is that, that, that, that the plastics are contaminated with air now. So, the better the product, the more it can be utilised, not only locally, but have a, have a commercial value to utilise on some of the poorest soils in the world, in Australia perhaps. Speaker 3: Well, it gives us the ability to be able to, um, control what goes into the bin. So, if you have one bin for FOGO, you, you, you struggle to control the food that will
00:53:00 go into the FOGO bin. You'll still have the red bin, which typically, a good portion of the population will still utilise. If you have a separate bin for food waste, you have the ability to control the food in that bin, and control the green bin. And separate, and try and drag out as much of food waste out of the landfill as possible. And that's, that's the hard thing. 12,000 tonnes go in, you can try as hard as you want. You've got to, you know, be able to change to get 12,000 tonnes. Speaker 8: Which is what they're discovering in the food waste trials that they're doing. There's three food waste trials that have been conducted across South East Queensland. Yeah. Through, uh, through government, they're finding the contamination, particularly around here, which has been very... Plastics. Plastics, you're doing. Plastics. Yeah. Because people... Wrapping. They've got to line bins. They've got to line their bins with the material that's already in there, so. Speaker 4: Oh, right. Oh, there's one more, isn't there? Speaker 8: Yeah. That goes off, then, from the hotline. Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, last one. Yeah, the last one's, it's, um, it's not waste to energy. It's waste energy precinct.
00:54:00 Yeah. So, uh, waste to energy is a, I guess, a term for incineration. Um, I'll just begin to put that forward. Um, in, in our funding anyway. Um, the, the idea is to use some of the area around the landfill to promote advanced manufacturing, to take some of these resources, utilise the, um, uh, the area for solar, and try advanced manufacturing in the area for job creation, um, and end-use products for, for waste and resources. Speaker 4: So, Karen, just a question. Out of, these have all been, these are all projects that have been discussed at the Council of Mayors. Yeah. And out of all of them, we've got, yeah, we know emissions comes from our landfill, most from our Council. Um, what do you think would help us the most in reducing emissions? Is it, is it a, a combination, or is it, if you want to think like that will definitely make a huge difference? Speaker 3: Uh, well, the, the first one would be an anaerobic digester, yes. Speaker 4: Yeah. Speaker 3: Because you're taking the food waste. Yeah, okay. As soon as we can get rid of the food waste out of the landfill, um, and it, I say that
00:55:00 with a bit of trepidation because you've still got to behave and change the population to pull it out of the fish. Mm. We can't take that lightly. I think Noosa's a very committed and, uh, keen, uh, group of people to, to, to do this on. Um, but we've got to store all 12,000 out of commercial and private entities, um, out of the landfill. Speaker 8: It's still one of the most significant, um, things in the general waste bin that is a resource. Yeah. Probably, probably going to do a lot. Yeah. And, what, what was the last thing we had? Speaker 3: Uh, I wouldn't, I could take that as a no, but I think it's. Um, someone said 25. 25 or something like that. 25. Speaker 8: In, in a venture. I'm sorry, do you mean like the 50% within the business? Commercial. Yeah. Speaker 4: Yeah. So we've put the, this little fund in, this, Councillor Mayes. Yeah. Which part of that, the, um, the 2.1 billion or the 105?
00:56:00 Speaker 3: Uh, I, I think they define where it sits. Okay. We just put that into a pot. Okay. And, um, and we'll work through. And, and I guess it's, the caveat is we're not going to, you know, they won't approve all of these. Yeah, of course. There'll be some, uh, work through here to get through the gateways. Um, there might be another council which ends up with a bigger site. Yeah. And they want to do, as a, as a entity, suck the waste from here to that, that, uh, site from the feasibility point of view. So, uh, I think, you know, from a gas reduction point of view, energy digestion would definitely stymie our emissions. Speaker 8: And one of the elements that comes through with, say, these things is, is if adjoining council's got the same, same sort of strategy, same sort of, what the question is, are you guys talking to each other? Is there an opportunity? From a, from a regional perspective, will it work? What's the feasibility of the business case? Come back to us. Councillor Lorentson: So, um, so, Karen, we, you just said we, our digestion, um, project is the one that's,
00:57:00 that's got the highest environmental return on investment or social return on investment. Which project has the highest economic return on investment? What could we make money on? Speaker 3: Well, that's a, that's a, I mean, I'd be talking without doing a reasonable feasibility study, so I'd be guessing. Um, it, look, you, there's, there's numerous ways to look at it. So, for an anaerobic digester, not only are you taking the emissions and turning them into a fuel of power, which obviously attracts revenue, um, you're a, you're potentially, adding in the offsets that you would have been paying anyway to, to divert the emissions. So that's an added cost, which is a huge benefit. Um, so the, the, the model is what we need to look at, and the model is to consider all these elements that cost, not just what we gain with power generation, it's the cost of the offset. Why not put in that material on the land? Speaker 8: And that's, that's the point.
00:58:00 Councillor Lorentson: I'm thinking bigger. We keep talking about the resource as being an opportunity to diversify our economy from tourism, so that's where I'm sitting. You know, again, I go back to Logan City Biosolid Gasification Project, and they're delivering some serious returns on this investment. And they're things that I think as a council should be seriously looking at. Well, I'm going to that side. I would actually love to come along, Kone. I'll send you an email. Speaker 3: It's Thursday. Councillor Lorentson: Yes, Thursday. Speaker 1: Thursday, 5 o'clock in the morning. Councillor Lorentson: He hasn't even sent me an email.
00:59:00 I'm thinking my diary will have to replace something at 5 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, I'm going to see that as well. Speaker 8: Everyone on these projects has an element of... It's exciting though, right? This is so exciting. Speaker 4: Yeah. Speaker 3: The modelling is where we are starting to look, you know, Larry wants to get heavily involved in the modelling. He's starting that modelling sooner rather than later. Yeah. We've got to have a financial model on this and understand, well, that's potentially the first project for various reasons, emissions, costs, financial benefits, and trying to understand that. And then, you know, how that flows out in terms of status and gateways. Speaker 8: The other thing within all of these projects that we've put forward, we're not certain of leads in all of this. Leads, these are what we've done elsewhere in Australia and across the world. So, we can do the lessons. You know, from other entities that have taken these paths, we're going to use those lessons as our own learnings.
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01:00:00 So, if we do it better, smarter and more correctly, get a better return. Speaker 4: Well done. It's great. The collaboration with the council needs is great. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 4: It's really good. I'll move it. It's good to have you. Speaker 8: I'll second it. I was actually going to move it. Any questions? All in favour? Councillor Wegener: A couple of the compaction bins that have been down at the beach through Christmas, watching those, and they got the blonde guy with the blonde beard walking up and down, and you know, yeah, you're right, they put the compaction bin in an area on the beach that's quite a distance, and so he says, well, I'd have to, you know, drag the bins down here and replace this one very often, nearly as often, and I watched it, and it looked great, it was fantastic, and that one never overflowed, because, you know, of course I was down there the other day, and the bins were overflowing, and that would have helped.
01:01:00 Composting, with, at Permaculture, we've had at least seven different shipments of double grinds, and one of them was the big 24 cubic meters, and as we spread that out, not one weed seed, so out of seven different deliveries, we have not seen one weed pop up. We were worried about nut grass, because the nut grass came through eventually, but as we dug down, we dug down all the way through the double grind, and found that the nut grass was actually in the ground before, so the nut grass will go through a half a meter of double grind in a couple of days, it seems. Speaker 8: Actually, one with the nut grass in my own garden, and a blast. Councillor Wegener: So, so that was good, so that when you're composting those large piles, and people say, oh, the weeds, man, it seems, it appears to me, from our experiments, that if it's in a large pile there, it heats up dramatically, and, you know, smokes for days and days and days, and there aren't, I've not seen a weed seed come out of the double, out of the double grind. Yeah, also, it takes about six to eight months for that double grind to break down, and to continue to keep breaking down, you add manure to it, a couple of things, like minor things, and you'll grow in it, but it doesn't grow straight away.
01:02:00 It takes a while for the nitrogen to, for the wood to break down enough so that there's enough nitrogen inside there for the plants to grow, otherwise, it just, it doesn't, nothing grows in it. And then, of course, another aspect to the, um, um, uh, biochar is, um, compost breaks down in turn, you know, you've got a big pile, and you have a very small pile, but that, uh, um, biochar element of it doesn't break down and get smaller, so if you have about a one-third, uh, you know, one-third compost and one-third double, you know, you've got a big pile, and you have a very small pile, but that, uh, um, biochar element of it doesn eventually, as that breaks down, you'll have one-third biochar still sitting there, so it's amazing in that it just, that's, that's what actually really builds up your earth, is that char, because it doesn't break down and disappear, it just sticks around and keeps the same volume forever, it just keeps getting better and better.
01:03:00 Um, with food waste, and people, um, ways of changing our habits around here, you know, in Korea, the thought of throwing a piece of food into a trash bin is unthinkable, every single little bit gets, goes, goes either to the feed, the pigs, the chickens, or into whatever, but it doesn't, everywhere you go, there's buckets of food early in the morning, and you come through, they pick them up at all the restaurants, um, yeah. And with polystyrene, I think, just as a surfboard maker, I used to haul out two bins full of dust every, every week, and it just made me sick, that's one reason I switched to wood surfboards, but, um, I think that having a polystyrene, um, component of the ability to take the polystyrene and melt it down into blocks might actually be an incentive for businesses like surfboard makers, boat makers, anybody that uses polystyrene to say, hey, we can go to Noosa, we can get rid, we can get rid of that for free, versus filling up trash bins.
01:04:00 Speaker 8: We already have our electrical contract, uh, electrical wholesalers taking the styrofoam from the electrical contractors and filing it up and bringing it in as clean, clean polystyrene for processes. They've been doing it for a number of years. Councillor Wegener: Yeah, I'm bugging it down a bit, sometimes the place is absolutely for chockers, isn't it? It's just chock a lot. Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't, we haven't really advertised, uh, polystyrene too much yet, we haven't had a big enough machine. Councillor Wegener: So there's just so much excitement in, uh, in your area there, Carolyn, thank you for coming on board, and, uh, this did, and the whole council being behind you 100%, it seems, it's a real, just a real, can't take out a feather in your cap, thanks. Thanks so much. Councillor Finzel: Thank you, um, I've just got a question, under your concept, you've got five gateways to progress this forward, on page 10, and it looks like we are at the proposed concept stage, is what we've talked about today, um, I'm interested in how we get to the building the business plan, pass gate 2, so, um, what's the process to get us there?
01:05:00 Is it, can other concepts come to the table now, or is this sort of it, and we're progressing these concepts forward? Speaker 3: No, I don't, the process, the, the process is you want to have more, further projects can come through the pipeline, there's no doubt, it's how we, um, you know, we dictate what that, those projects are, we put them into a nil, I guess, so to speak, and we work with the PMO, with our neighbours and concept, to identify which one fits their strategy, it's about the collaboration, challenge, location, so it's, it's not, it's not that any concept can't come through, it's, it's Speaker 8: the process now, the gateways are not our gateways, they're the gateways, no, they're the gateways in the PMO, and it's got to fit their criteria, yeah, so have we started any business plans in council on these concepts, or do we do business plans on these concepts, that's our next call, yeah, but we have been trawling processes, like polystyrene processing, we have been trawling composting, we've been trawling compaction bins, uh, we've been doing, um, containers for change, we've been
01:06:00 Speaker 3: doing, um, gas, gas location of, um, of methane, and gas, gas capture for, um, for a number of years, so. So we've trawled and we haven't done a business plan. We'll just, these, we'll talk later in the next session. Some of those projects, aka the, um, polystyrene, that, we've done a business plan, and that's going through as an opinion, we'll quickly be putting that up to council, um, to potentially buy ourselves into it quickly, because of the cost, um, I don it's not a huge investment, and payback's in probably about eight months, so that would seem pretty sensible just to get on with something like that one, um, and the content. Is that the financial, based on the financial intent of council, and the speed of delivery? Uh, it's more about cost, um, cost to council, so I think, you know, the cost of, the average cost of every tunnel we put to land is going to cost, that current cost is about $160 per tunnel, um, so,
01:07:00 Speaker 8: every tunnel we dug in there, we save that, um, in the long term perspective, and we elongate the, the life you need for it. And the other side of the coin, that Kyrone explained, is that the volume that the styrofoam takes up in the landfill, means that that, uh, life in the landfill is shortened, because of the volume, if you take that volume out, you can then continue to use what's intended to, as much as you need to. Yeah. So hopefully we're diverting more away, rather than paying for it. I think Speaker 3: the tonnage is important, but one ton of polystyrene is 66 tons equivalent of waste, which is bigger than its room. And that's, that's the volume it takes away, so 15 kilos is a cubic metre of polystyrene, which you want to put a ton of waste in that same stock of landfill. But I don't charge $160 for 15 kilos, you know, it doesn't really stack up financially, so the, the financial model for diverting that really makes sense.
01:08:00 Yeah. Councillor Finzel: Thank you. Speaker 8: Yes, but not only will the machine pay for itself in that element, the, the blocks that it creates, have a value to sell back to, Yep. create more polystyrene, so the more polystyrene you collect, the more you can get returned. That's part of the process, as well. Anything further, councillors? Uh, we've moved it, we've taken it. All in favour? Carries and Anderson? Thank you. Thank you, councillors. Thanks, councillors. Thank you. We'll move on to item 3, the contract for the design, supply, install and service of a digital two way radio system with GPS, plantation and services. Contract ordered. Change. Entry. It gives a bit of an overview on an understanding of what the current system is.
01:09:00 Speaker 2: I might just start with the time frame for how we got to this situation, is that right? That's where I'll start, you and James. Ok, so October 2020 we had the slot on the U of Halloween that took out quite a bit of our systems around the place. The Black Mountain VHF repeater was taken out, we lost power to that. It was identified that we had no redundancy at all with that VHF system. So it's all about how vehicles, how they all talk to each other and how they all get involved between facilities as well. So that was all gone. So we did a bit of investigation and then identified that the medium band VHF was actually being discontinued as well. It wasn't being used at all. So in November, Council started getting a company called Radlink to determine needs and market costs. So we identified that.
01:10:00 The mid band was now the only way to go. We should go to a high value VHF system. In March we were able to provide some market prices and this is through 2021. Black Summer Bushfire funding was released in July that year and we applied for that. So it was endorsed by UT. We applied and were granted that in August 2021. In February 2022 we were identified that we received funding for the amount that we put in. We then put the technical specs developed. They were developed. We got help from procurement. We got a company called Gravel Roads to actually make up the tender because it's quite a complex system and it's not something we had in our skills. So Gravel Roads were brought on board to come up with the technical specs. And then worked on similar projects for Toowoomba Council. And so yeah, that took quite a while to actually put together. The tender was released in August.
01:11:00 And then the tenders were actually given an extra couple of weeks to respond due to, again, the complexity of the task. We've ended up with an evaluation that's come through and a preferred respondent that we would like to go to. We've then gone back for pricing comparisons and a finalisation as well. And that's where we are at the moment. So that's the future of the costs. Speaker 6: And then, obviously, just adding to James' background, the cost has come in above the grant application. We obviously did a lot of work clarifying price and ensuring that the price was effective. The key challenge for us as an organisation is that we're a system that not only ensures business continuity during disaster events, but also day-to-day operational oversight and business continuity for the fleet and our operational teams. Any reduction on scope that reduces the number of repeaters or any level of access across the Shire compromises the system.
01:12:00 So what we've recommended in the report is that we continue with the proposed scope. Any shortfall in the cost will fund, in the first instance, from our Fleet Coupled Works Program, which is currently under spend at BR2 due to timing delays and us just capturing, catching up on our large fleet program this year and supply chain delays. But in the meantime, we'll continue to work within the organisation to keep seeking funding opportunities because there's life we had with the Black Summer bushfires. There's continual grant funding coming through at the moment out of QRA for resilience funding for what we've obviously experienced last year with the rain event as well. So we'll continue to pursue, if possible, supporting funding to get this on the ground. This isn't just a nice-to-have, it's a must-have, isn't it?
01:13:00 In our opinion, yes. It's critical, both from a disaster and business operations perspective. The value of our fleet is significant. We've got a lot of vehicles out there. On any given day, there's around 150 vehicles and staff that are out there on the ground every day. If we have an unforeseen weather event and those vehicles are out there, we need to know where our staff are to ensure that they're safe and that we can mobilise them to address any critical issues that arise during the disaster. Speaker 8: The reason we need this is to communicate with our staff out there in the field in places where we haven't had to make communications issues. Speaker 2: As well in the community as well. Speaker 8: That's the next part. That's the next part. Is it just council staff or is there more to this, James? Speaker 2: There's more to this. Speaker 8: We're talking about disaster funding. Yep. So if you really understand what the benefit is, can you give us a bit more of an understanding
01:14:00 of what this will deliver for the community? Speaker 2: So for the community, we're going to need to put some of these base assets within community structures so that if they're isolated and then we lose 4G connection, 5G connection, we have another one that's contacted itself. That's the only thing we're done is you're talking about. That's right. And we also have them at the moment, we've got them at Musil Hospital, we've got them at the waste facilities, at the weighbridge. Those systems will be replaced and replaced with new systems so we can still keep that continuity going. Speaker 8: The other element of this, we've been talking about fire, spotting systems and some of the other data communications that tend to separate. Will this be a part of that network? Will we be able to separate some of those elements through this digital network? Or is that a completely separate? Speaker 2: No, it would be combined. So what we're looking to do is to have that tower. I think we've talked about it at a number of different meetings about a tower at the
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01:15:00 lagoon. I think we're going to be able to have some cameras up there as well. Speaker 8: And be able to combine all the elements of digital communications and facilitation of emergency management as well as data and communications across the region. That's right. Yeah. Talk to you in regards of coverage. You said 90%? 90%? What are we going to do with the other 10% of the lacrosse there? Are we still going to continue to pursue that? Is there any opportunities there to try and find those? There definitely is opportunities. Speaker 2: I've been speaking with a company called Indara. Indara Tech has taken over all of the infrastructure for pretty much Optus, Spofo and some things. So just only had conversations today about where we can look for opportunities even through fire tech to see whether their infrastructure could be utilised at a reduced rate to put equipment up. Speaker 8: Well I know at the LEMG meeting we were having a conversation with Energex as well.
01:16:00 Speaker 2: So I've had that conversation as well. So I'm just trying to find out what's the most difficult and try and get those costs down because they can be quite expensive. But we'll need the opportunities and the facilities that already exist. Speaker 8: Exactly. Yeah. Speaker 2: So if we kind of use some of the pano option it's kind of saying that you'll get your asset protection if you have this equipment on board and if you can offer a reduced rate for us to have our equipment. Speaker 8: We can tell you that in one day it's just coming to your asset while we're there. Right. Any other questions? Sorry. I've got a bit of a... Got a bit excited. I'm trying to feed some of the information to you and understand where it was coming from because I've been on board with the LEMG. I'm happy to second it. No further questions? Councillor Wilkie: Just a question. You mentioned that it will increase coverage to 90% of the geographical area of Noosa Shire. What is the... What sort of coverage do we have currently? Speaker 2: I can't recall the top of my head.
01:17:00 I'm sorry. It's not 90%. Yeah. It's not. No. Councillor Wilkie: Are we doubling our coverage or increasing by 10%? What's the... Speaker 2: I'd be saying increasing by probably 20 to 30%. We're just going to have some of that penetration into that northern region. And that's why if we were looking at another option, we would ideally have three because if one tower gets taken out, they're going to reroute and go through another one. So even just having two, there isn't one single point of redundancy, having that third one in the future. And that's through additional funding to say, look, we have invested in this. Can we get another tower and infrastructure? Yeah. Speaker 8: Okay. Yeah. By monitoring the lines. Yep. Councillor Wilkie: Yep. And the shortfall, budget shortfall funded initially from the council fleet replacement program, can you quantify what vehicles, new vehicles council would go without to cover this? What would this mean in terms of vehicles not purchased? Speaker 6: We...
01:18:00 There's no case of going without the vehicles. What we've had experienced over the last six months, we've had some change in staff, which has obviously delayed the purchasing of it. We also find that with our larger vehicles, there is quite a supply chain lead time to get vehicles on the ground. So whilst it might only be a few months to get a ute or a car, when it comes to some of the larger stuff, like a truck that we might want to customise the re-equipment on or yellow plants, such as an excavator or backhoe, it can be at least four months lead time, just given the current market conditions, where we're sourcing material from areas that are struggling to keep up with the demand. So we're not proposing any reduction. It's essentially what we're doing is we're rescheduling and re-timing our capital works over the next two to three years, being realistic about when we're going to spend it. So we'll still have to find that money over the next three years, but it's a case of we don't need it this year. Councillor Wilkie: So council's not going without vehicles? Speaker 6: No, definitely not.
01:19:00 Or plant or equipment? Councillor Wilkie: Definitely not. Speaker 6: The focus is actually the opposite at the moment, where we're undertaking different fleet work to ensure that the size, scale, provision type of vehicles that we have for our staff to use is fit for purpose and meets the needs, so that our business areas, such as civil operations, natural areas, et cetera, are adequately resourced to do that work. Speaker 8: I think the other side of that is where the funding currently is coming from, and we're going to have to obtain that. Speaker 2: So hopefully going to be able to get a little bit of residual around $75,000 that is available from the bushfire recovery fund. That originally was $275,000. Some of those projects didn't get ahead of the fund alternatively, so there's money from that. And then we've also got an application by the Federal Government Disaster Ready Fund for another $50,000 to then supplement as well. So we're looking at as much as we can.
01:20:00 Speaker 8: The fact that it serves multiple purposes gives us multiple opportunities for funding. Councillor Finzel: I'm sorry, question over here. Thank you. My question is in relation to the 90% that's covered, will the rain point in the Farabar area be covered? Because I think in the news out there I know there's an issue for middle communications in disaster, or will maybe like the 10% that might be covered? Speaker 2: No, I think they're very good. It's more towards that Kin Kin area. So if we've got Laguna that's looking out straight down through the woods, Boring Point is actually... It's quite good. It's those mountainous areas towards Kin Kin and behind. So that's what we were initially looking at when we were looking at using the infrastructure of Mt Warlbyte, and then potentially looking at Macau Mountain, on the foot of Mt Warlbyte. So that's what would give us that middle and that aspect, because that means there's an opportunity for water and water. I don't know why this reads to you. Councillor Finzel: Yeah, I don't think it's valid. Thank you.
01:21:00 Councillor Wilkie: James, did you say one of the towers is going at Blackmount? Speaker 2: I don't know. Councillor Wilkie: Where are the towers going? Speaker 2: We originally have a tower at Blackmount, so it's just changing out the repeat on that one. And then the other one is at, potentially, Laguna, if we can get it. Speaker 8: So the opportunity is to turn it all into Mt Warlbyte, that could be an opportunity to combine with other councils, like the Council of the North, that we've had with you today? Yeah. Speaker 2: The first relationship is as much as I can to get them. Yeah. It's been very difficult, unfortunately, to deal with Mt Warlbyte. Yeah, I've struggled with their property area. Unfortunately, where the towers are at Mt Warlbyte, they're actually on a lady's land. And you have to meet her, and you have to put in a request and speak to her, and then go and see her. And if she doesn't want to speak to you, you can't . It's quite difficult. Councillor Wilkie: Does she have a shotgun? Probably.
01:22:00 Councillor Lorentson: Yeah. James, Neeson was your Tewant area. What's the coverage you want to go to be? I don't know. Speaker 2: I think that would be quite low. Is she OK? Yeah. That would be good. Yeah, that's really . I don't know why you're doing it. No. No. Yeah. Councillor Wilkie: So is it mainly Kin Kin that's patchy? And will this address that? Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll address parts of it. Councillor Wilkie: Yeah. Speaker 2: That would be good. We'd still be able to have our fleet vehicles out there. And at the start, we're able to effectively get signals back. But it's not going to . I mean, that's the point we have. It's normal. My wrong perception. Speaker 8: So the link to telecommunications, like an officer's phone if you're in the area, if there's a black spot there, this will help facilitate that? Speaker 2: That's the idea. If you've got better coverage there, that black spot could potentially . If you've got the radio. Speaker 8: Yes. Speaker 2: Yeah. So the radio . Yeah, it's just the radio. It's just the radio .
01:23:00 Yeah, it's not . The radio . It's not fixing my . Councillor Wilkie: So just a bit of detail about, you mentioned that the radios could go in some council facilities throughout the Shire that may be gathering points during disasters. Can you name some of the assets that you're talking about? Is it like Ridgewood Hall, one of them, or? Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially. We looked at . Councillor Wilkie: Kin Kin Community. Speaker 2: So we looked at the same club, and that's not . So then the upper line, the upper line. So we'll be working with that group there and saying, what's at your spot, you'd probably be thinking maybe the community centre or something like that where it would be a gathering point. Halls, places . Leisure centre? Yeah. Councillor Wilkie: Leisure centre? It's an evacuation point? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Speaker 8: So the opportunity to get emergency services utilized? No, they've got a different . Speaker 2: They've got their own system. And that's going up to another level. That's sort of $16,000 a hand centre.
01:24:00 Councillor Wilkie: All right. No static from me. It's a great idea. Speaker 8: Move Councillor Lorentson and I'll second. Actually, you . Move to the second . So all in favour? Thank you very much. Thank you, James. Thank you very much. Thank you, James. Thank you very much. Do you see a . Do you see a ? And we'll move on to item 4, the proposed new lease for shop 7 at St. Lawrence Shopping Centre in Melbourne, and we'll come back to the table. Now I notice, and I spoke to the CEO earlier, there's an attachment here, the condition is in. Councillor Wilkie: What can we and can't we say in this discussion? Noting the confidentiality. Speaker 8: And that's what I'm just alluding to, Mr. C. If you'd like to come up, because I know it's an attachment to item 1 of our assessment and recommendation of colleges, which is essentially what we're here to discuss.
01:25:00 But item 2, attachment 2 is confidential and off-public lease proposed commercial terms and conditions. With regard to an item such as this, I'm assuming that provided that we're only talking in general terms and not going into the details of the proposed commercial terms and conditions, we don't have to go to the confidential session. But if anybody actually wants to go into the details of terms and conditions, we would potentially have to go into it. Speaker 5: Chair, absolutely correct. That's right. So the recommendation that we're asking for is to be able to enter into an agreement. The commercial terms and conditions are commercial in confidence, so they are, we'd be confidential. If Council has some silly questions around it, we would need to go into confidentiality and have those discussions. However, that would work. With the director and then also our manager of the area, we believe that there's sufficient information for Council to be able to make the decision open in relation to entry into a lease.
01:26:00 And you are fully aware of the terms and conditions that have been negotiated and you would be able to take it with the proper time. Councillor Wilkie: Thank you for clarifying. I understand that. Yeah, that's good. Speaker 8: Okay. Robert, would you mind giving a bit of an overview on where we're at? Speaker 1: Sure. The report for you is in relation to the leasing of Shop 7 at Sunrise Shops in Brice Street Court in Sunrise Beach. The centre consists of eight tenancies, totalling 930 square metres, and is a Council-owned facility. Shop 7 was vacated in June 2022. Council subsequently understood restorative works within the shop to return it to a leaseable shell. Colliers, who is our property manager and broking agent. Subsequently, went to market in December with an expression of interest and advertised the space for lease.
01:27:00 They then reviewed the offers that were received from the market and in February put forward a recommendation to Council, which is the attachment one, for Council to enter into a lease with Butchers of Noosa. The offer from Butchers of Noosa is considered complementary to the current tenancy mix. The proposed rate per square metre is the highest that we've achieved at the centre so far, which is likely due to having an eight tenant, which attracts a higher yield and a higher return. The leasing will be responsible for all planning, development and bid-out works required. The proposal does include incorporating an open breezeway area next to Shop 7 into the shop area. That's around 28 square metres. They will be responsible for all the works associated with that. It's a strategic aspect because it essentially converts an area that's unused into a commercial return.
01:28:00 Thanks for your consideration. Any questions? Speaker 8: No, you don't have to just move through the market. Speaker 1: Nah, at the centre there's two breezeways that provide an open thoroughfare from the front to the back of the house We're closing up one that is away from the public amenities. It's currently got our letterboxes in it for the precinct and a fire hydrant, so those are easily relocatable. It's not used operationally and there's no parking at the rear of the shops that people use to walk through, so it's got very low utilisation and no operational value. And the previous use of this house, what was the previous use of this house? It was previously a butcher, yeah. Speaker 8: So we're referring to the butcher service to the community that they're thinking of having in that house. Speaker 1: Correct. And what they want to put forward there, their expression of interest that they've submitted.
01:29:00 The types of food, they have a lot of ready-made packaged foods, so it's very much geared towards the Sunrise Beach community. Picking up, you know, a packaged meal on the way home. Doing some of the work at home. Yeah. Doing a high-end offering and they also want to run some wholesale. They'll run their admin for their wholesale business out of there as well. Speaker 8: Do you have a report on the ready-to-throw-on? Speaker 1: If that's what... Australia? Yeah. Yeah. I'm very interested in that. Pretty similar to yours. Councillor Lorentson: So I wrote on the front page very much to be successful. Yeah. And I think that's part of the management team at the Monday Meats at Belmondo. I don't know if anyone's purchased meat over there. Great operation, top end. And the Sunrise Beach precinct, a lot with the IGA.
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01:30:00 I think the community will really welcome this business. So I'm so excited and want to be the first to welcome this new business. Speaker 8: Yes, here. Welcome to Plano. Speaker 4: It's a great place. Speaker 1: Yeah, they do. They do bring a lot of experience. I will note that once we get past this step, then the works that are subject to planning approvals and building approvals. So we do have those next steps to work through. But it's definitely an exciting opportunity for the community there. Absolutely. Councillor Lorentson: Fantastic. And it didn't take long to fill the tenants. Speaker 1: No. Councillor Lorentson: It did well. That was excellent. Yeah. To see where you stood. Speaker 1: Yeah. Councillor Lorentson: And you said the time stamp filled almost, you know, over 3 million people. And that's tough sometimes. So having that anchor tenant is an important factor. Speaker 1: It's critical. Yeah. And anchor tenant brings the traffic, which means that for the market considering going there, they know the traffic is coming there anyway. Speaker 8: Any other questions, Kevin?
01:31:00 Councillor Wilkie: No, you just pretty set aside yourself that converting that breezeway, that access point into a bridge. I mean, I'm not sure that's something that you're going to impede access in and around that centre generally. Speaker 1: Yeah. It's definitely something that we didn't take a quick or a light decision on. No. I know when I started with the property team, it was something that was flagged as an opportunity several years ago, just because it was historically an unused space. Okay. As part of reviewing, we're not entering into a, you know, a decision that isn't well thought through. I consulted with IGA. They don't have a problem with it. They don't use it operationally. Every time I've been there, you kind of watch to see what traffic is coming through. We know that there's no parking in the rear of the store. And from a fire and safety perspective, we've got the other breezeway access, because it is important to have front and rear accessibility.
01:32:00 Councillor Wilkie: Yep. Thank you. That's my only question. Yeah. Speaker 8: There is potential future developments. Correct. Speaker 1: And to be honest, the existing breezeway is probably located closer to where their connectivity or pedestrian access would be anyway. Good point. Speaker 8: Anything further, councillors? Can I get a moment? Councillor Lorentson, seconder? Councillor Wilkie? All in favour? Very unanimously. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Item six is reports of nothing. Speaker 2: There are none. Speaker 8: No confidential discussions. Thank you very much.